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  #61  
Old 23.07.2013, 15:49
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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The Daily Mail and the Blaze? Those two bastions of honest, thorough, unsensationalised journalism?

Again, and for the umpteenth time, im not denying their legal code is flawed, so your effort was wasted. (seriously) Thanks for taking the time to find some sources though (even if it is the Daily Heil)
I am not sure how you came to assume that my quoting of these links was for the express purpose of only convincing you to accept that the UAE legal code was flawed etc.

I had mentioned it for all those who might be interested. My effort, from my point of view, was very much worthwhile.

I have known of these cases. They are also mentioned in the latest CNN reports which talks about this Norwegian woman's case. I was only looking for any links which could give some details on these. Granted that the sources quoted are not the paragons of journalistic virtue, however that doesn't mean that these incidents have not taken place. They did.
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Old 23.07.2013, 15:56
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Nope, that's again just half the story = the girl went to the cops because she expected them to help her. Some days later she is released on parole and finally gets that she is the one who will get charged. Her company lawyers advise her to drop all claims and she believes them that she could at least get out of her own trial. However does the public persecutor decide the opposite and charges her now with adultery, drinking AND perjury.

P.S: An Arab newspaper might not be the most unbiased source...
Very good point.

nothing and no one so far explan why she was drinking without a license (the drinking illegally bit), and why she left the event with the guy, and why she went to a hotel room with the guy (of which there seems to be video evidence)? All fo which che knew was illegal, and by all accounts, she didnt seem that drunk.

From the public prosecutors perspective, the only evidence of rape was the claim made by the victim. He had a tough choice to make, and he made a choice in keeping with the laws of the country. I dont envy his job.

Not denying it was rape or condoning any aspect, just that there are too many unanswered questions for me judge anyone too harshly.

Update: Red blobs for this? 'thats going too far' as the comment. If you feel strongly against what i said, prove me wrong or present a counter argument.

Last edited by J2488; 23.07.2013 at 17:27.
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Old 23.07.2013, 16:05
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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I am not sure how you came to assume that my quoting of these links was for the express purpose of only convincing you to accept that the UAE legal code was flawed etc.

I had mentioned it for all those who might be interested. My effort, from my point of view, was very much worthwhile.

I have known of these cases. They are also mentioned in the latest CNN reports which talks about this Norwegian woman's case. I was only looking for any links which could give some details on these. Granted that the sources quoted are not the paragons of journalistic virtue, however that doesn't mean that these incidents have not taken place. They did.

Apologies, i misunderstood your post. Yes, i agree, miscarraiges of justices happen, more so when the legal code is immature, such as in UAE.
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Old 23.07.2013, 16:19
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Very good point.

nothing and no one so far explan why she was drinking without a license (the drinking illegally bit), and why she left the event with the guy, and why she went to a hotel room with the guy (of which there seems to be video evidence)? All fo which che knew was illegal, and by all accounts, she didnt seem that drunk.

From the public prosecutors perspective, the only evidence of rape was the claim made by the victim. He had a tough choice to make, and he made a choice in keeping with the laws of the country. I dont envy his job.

Not denying it was rape or condoning any aspect, just that there are too many unanswered questions for me judge anyone too harshly.
Yes but, it is one thing, if they felt she brought false charges. But from the articles presented it was not the case with the prosecutor.

The issue here is a woman/a person, is sent to jail for having sex and the drinking bit. There are dry counties in the southern states in the USA as well. You can be arrested for buying, selling, or consuming alcohol there as well, western law, not sharia.

But charging someone who also forgot to bring along 4 males to possibly witnesses to a crime suggests, that women should always believe that there is a possibility men will act as criminals towards them in private.

You/they are saying, that Men should be considered pre judged. And if you get into a situation where a crime is committed to you, without taking the precautions of bringing witnesses along, you are the one to be punished.

Honestly sober, drunk, tripping on shrooms, eating Tonka beans, it doesn't matter. People should be able to walk and live in society without constant fear of rape, and clearly of Men. Could you imagine if you had to be in constant fear of the opposite sex? It's a not a way to live.
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Old 23.07.2013, 16:27
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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nothing and no one so far explan why she was drinking without a license (the drinking illegally bit), and why she left the event with the guy, and why she went to a hotel room with the guy (of which there seems to be video evidence)? All fo which che knew was illegal, and by all accounts, she didnt seem that drunk.
Honestly: You seem to have not read a single article on the case but just trying to stir shit...

According to the girl:
- was it a company event where alcohol was offered to all employees. If this is illegal do I not think the persecutors should pick the female junior employee but the boss, no?
- she did not leave with the guy, the event was finished and all employees went back to the hotel they are booked in.
- the hotel is apparently one of the very big ones they have in Dubai and the drunk girl was afraid to lose her way - so she asks a coworker if he could help her to find her room. He brings her to his room instead and when she recognizes it at the door pulls her into the room and then overpowers her.

According to the guy:
- they agreed to go to the room and have fun. No idea why the girl claims it is a rape...

I really don't get what you are trying to get at other than trolling - I guess we all know people who had a one night stand when they were hammered. I know plenty of cases of my college time and never did a girl later claim to have been raped if she wasn't. That's not something you make up easily.
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Old 23.07.2013, 16:37
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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I really don't get what you are trying to get at other than trolling - I guess we all know people who had a one night stand when they were hammered. I know plenty of cases of my college time and never did a girl later claim to have been raped if she wasn't. That's not something you make up easily.
It does happen unfortunately. And not necessarily out of malice. Sometimes the shame you have over something that happened when drunk turns you to reinterpret the events afterwards. Sometimes it's a simple case of drunk people being less able to interpret subtelties and body language, and the woman maybe having been on the fence between a yes and a no and so sent ambiguous signals, while the man was filtering those same signals to see what he wanted to see. It can happen very easily.
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Old 23.07.2013, 16:39
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

Let's just agree that Dubai is a shithole.
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Old 23.07.2013, 16:42
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Very good point.

nothing and no one so far explan why she was drinking without a license (the drinking illegally bit), and why she left the event with the guy, and why she went to a hotel room with the guy (of which there seems to be video evidence)? All fo which che knew was illegal, and by all accounts, she didnt seem that drunk.

From the public prosecutors perspective, the only evidence of rape was the claim made by the victim. He had a tough choice to make, and he made a choice in keeping with the laws of the country. I dont envy his job.

Not denying it was rape or condoning any aspect, just that there are too many unanswered questions for me judge anyone too harshly.
You have just flip flopped back from saying the law was misinterpreted and perverted to again defending the decision. What exactly are you trying to say?
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Old 23.07.2013, 16:48
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Honestly: You seem to have not read a single article on the case but just trying to stir shit...

According to the girl:
- was it a company event where alcohol was offered to all employees. If this is illegal do I not think the persecutors should pick the female junior employee but the boss, no?

-So, should a car salesman be punished if somebody without a license buys a car and crashes it? She should be aware that just because it is offered, does not mean she can disregard local laws.

- she did not leave with the guy, the event was finished and all employees went back to the hotel they are booked in.
-Even if it were this case, If there were so many employees there, why leave with a male employee, when you know its frowned upon?

- the hotel is apparently one of the very big ones they have in Dubai and the drunk girl was afraid to lose her way - so she asks a coworker if he could help her to find her room. He brings her to his room instead and when she recognizes it at the door pulls her into the room and then overpowers her.
-Lots of assumptions in this bit
-Where is the evidence of this? Why not stay with the group until you are back in the hotel, and then ask a female colleague to help you back to your room? Why get that drunk in the first place, when you dont have a license to drink?

According to the guy:
- they agreed to go to the room and have fun. No idea why the girl claims it is a rape...
-As unlikely as it may seem, if you cannot prove his guilt, you cannot assume he is guilty.

I really don't get what you are trying to get at other than trolling - I guess we all know people who had a one night stand when they were hammered. I know plenty of cases of my college time and never did a girl later claim to have been raped if she wasn't. That's not something you make up easily.
Having an opposing viewpoint is not trolling. I do not apologise for believing that guilt, no matter where it may reside, needs to be proven beyond doubt before it is assumed.

My point a couple of posts ago was that in he-said-she-said cases like this, no matter where they are ME or New York, it comes down to one person, the prosecuter, to decide whether to charge or not. In this case, the prosecuter decided the laws of the country allow the charges that were made. Now, those charges may have been based on a faulty legal code, but that in itself DOES NOT prove guilt or innocence of any party. Becuase i have that doubt, i will not judge either him to be a rapist, or her to be a liar.
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Old 23.07.2013, 16:54
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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You have just flip flopped back from saying the law was misinterpreted and perverted to again defending the decision. What exactly are you trying to say?
2 points. I will present as simply as possible.

The legal system is flawed.

The prosecutor had to make a choice, and made one in keeping with said flawed legal system.

In an ideal world, she makes the claim, an investigation using CCTV, medical and scientific evidence, witness testimony or other evidence is used to either prove she is telling the truth or not, and the prosecuter decides depending on the weight of the evidence.

But what if the only evidence (the CCTV showing her enter his room without hint of force) does not help her story, and she admits to breaking other laws in the process, then futher admits to perjury? What exactly would you expect the prosecuter to do?

Again, not saying i condone any aspect of this awful business, just that its important to consider all angles.
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Old 23.07.2013, 17:05
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Yes but, it is one thing, if they felt she brought false charges. But from the articles presented it was not the case with the prosecutor.
-But the prosecuter did feel that her claims were not backed up by enough proof (as defined by a faulty legal system) to be satisfied a rape had taken place. Do we agree on this?

The issue here is a woman/a person, is sent to jail for having sex and the drinking bit. There are dry counties in the southern states in the USA as well. You can be arrested for buying, selling, or consuming alcohol there as well, western law, not sharia.
-The premarital sex bit i agree with you on. I dont see the benefit of the law, in the grand scheme of things. That said, if i go to Dubai, i will be wearing a chastity belt, to respect the local law.
-She did, however, admit to drinking without a license. To the police, this was an admission of guilt for breaking the relevant law. To the police her victim status does not mean the crimes that she committed and admitted to are no longer applicable.

But charging someone who also forgot to bring along 4 males to possibly witnesses to a crime suggests, that women should always believe that there is a possibility men will act as criminals towards them in private.

-Agreed. This highlights the need for change to UAE Law.

they are saying, that Men should be considered pre judged. And if you get into a situation where a crime is committed to you, without taking the precautions of bringing witnesses along, you are the one to be punished.

-She was punished for the Perjury and the drinking, two crimes she admitted to the police. Their hands were tied on this. If you walk into a police station and admit to a burglary, they will charge you for it. Thats their job.
-When she retracted her statement, she was retracting her accusation. With no accusation, they could not charge the man with rape. This leaves the fact that she had premarital sex in the UAE. Now, despite how we as westerners feel about this law, it is the law there. She should have been advised not to retract her statement.

Honestly sober, drunk, tripping on shrooms, eating Tonka beans, it doesn't matter. People should be able to walk and live in society without constant fear of rape, and clearly of Men. Could you imagine if you had to be in constant fear of the opposite sex? It's a not a way to live.
I agree with the theme of what you say in this post. I agree that the system of law in dubai is faulty, and needs to be modernised.

Last edited by J2488; 23.07.2013 at 17:18.
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Old 23.07.2013, 17:09
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Dubai on Empty
Its skyline erupting from the desert in just two decades, Dubai is a...

...everything. Cursed with money.
How does this enormous wall of text contribute to the discussion at hand?

The greater economic situation of Dubai isnt really relevant when considering this one particular case.
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Old 23.07.2013, 17:19
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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2 points. I will present as simply as possible.

The legal system is flawed.

The prosecutor had to make a choice, and made one in keeping with said flawed legal system.

In an ideal world, she makes the claim, an investigation using CCTV, medical and scientific evidence, witness testimony or other evidence is used to either prove she is telling the truth or not, and the prosecuter decides depending on the weight of the evidence.

But what if the only evidence (the CCTV showing her enter his room without hint of force) does not help her story, and she admits to breaking other laws in the process, then futher admits to perjury? What exactly would you expect the prosecuter to do?

Again, not saying i condone any aspect of this awful business, just that its important to consider all angles.
So you are saying the law is flawed, but you are also defending the prosecutor for doing his job and upholding it? As in it is not the job of the prosecutor to question the law?

To me it seems that is a different debate entirely.

So far, as far as I can see, the criticism on this thread has been of the law and the system, not of the personal decision of the prosecutor to rebel or not rebel against the rule of law.
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Old 23.07.2013, 17:24
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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So you are saying the law is flawed, but you are also defending the prosecutor for doing his job and upholding it? As in it is not the job of the prosecutor to question the law?

To me it seems that is a different debate entirely.

So far, as far as I can see, the criticism on this thread has been of the law and the system, not of the personal decision of the prosecutor.
The prosecuter and the system are directly related. The system demanded that the prosecuter, prosecute.

Not in Dubai, or in most legal codes, no. The prosecuters job is to enforce the law on behalf of the state. The same is true in the UK and the US. The individual DA of CPS may not agree with the law being enforced, but they are obliged to enforce it anyway, if the evidence is there. The prosecuters job is to prosecute, not to question the legal basis for prosecution. By her own admission, state law (wrt the drinking and perjury, and consequent self-incrimination) was broken.

It seems to me (and i have seen nothing to refute the fact) that the prosecuter charged both with the crimes he knew they had commited. He might have believed he had raped her, but without her accusation (it was withdrawn, remember) he couldnt, even if he wanted to. Whether we in switzerland agree with those laws is inconsequential. Whether he agrees with those laws is also, inconsequential.

The law and the system there may be one we disagree with, but no one can say she and he did not break those laws. Should that be ignored because she is from Norway?

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Old 23.07.2013, 17:44
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

Nyonais....... could you please stop writing such long posts






























































































































Nobody reads that shit.
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Old 23.07.2013, 17:44
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Ton of copied text
Just link to the article, do we really need the entire thing copied and pasted into multiple huge posts?
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Old 23.07.2013, 17:52
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Aplogies!

Dont have the links...these came to me by mail some time ago. The first one is from Vanity Fair and the second one from BBC..
You could have Googled the links in 5 seconds simply by searching for the titles...

1) http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/fe...4/dubai-201104

2) http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...i-1664368.html

Not too hard...
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Old 23.07.2013, 18:10
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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I repeat my apologies. I could have googled but it didn't occur to me at the time of posting. If the posts are that bothersome, perhaps the mods can delete them, now that there are links.
Nahhhhh......... then my post would look stupid.

I think what Richdog was politely trying to say is that "Google is your friend".


Concise, well thought posts usually are most effective....... something I am typically useless at (the thinking part).
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Old 24.07.2013, 10:24
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

So, i take it we're going to let this thread die off now?
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Old 24.07.2013, 10:43
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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I thought the case made that pretty clear: A legal system where a woman needs 4 (!) male (!!) eye witnesses (!!!) to proof a rape is surely left in medieval times. I think it does not get any clearer what sort of mindsets you find behind those supermodern high-rise facades.

The only reason the girl got pardoned (NOT acquitted )was because she happens to be European and decided to go the full fletched publicity route - she simply became an embarrassing case for the Arabs and was on each and every front page of her country for days.

A woman going into the offensive instead of being silenced of shame was apparently not something they could deal with. What a brave step for a 24 yr old. Her employer has in the meantime fired her based on culturally unacceptable behaviour... but I assume she would not want to stay and work in that country anyhow...

That is not true!

According to Islam, if a woman had sex with someone other than her husband, 4 witness had to tell that this is happened in order that she gets punished for that.

This other thing written above is not correct.
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