Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01.08.2013, 07:48
Wallabies's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 2,870
Groaned at 259 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 2,843 Times in 1,352 Posts
Wallabies has a reputation beyond reputeWallabies has a reputation beyond reputeWallabies has a reputation beyond reputeWallabies has a reputation beyond repute
Lets launch a war on smokers

The aussie government is launching a major fund raiser to the tune of circa 4.4Bn CHF courtesy of a 12.5% increase in taxes per year over the next 4 years on cigarettes


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-0...crease/4857244


CONGRATULATIONS this is a brilliant initiative by a government pushing the price of lung killers to 23-24CHF a packet. We need to educate the swiss to do likewise

The following 18 users would like to thank Wallabies for this useful post:
The following 15 users groan at Wallabies for this post:
  #2  
Old 01.08.2013, 08:04
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 12,684
Groaned at 518 Times in 420 Posts
Thanked 11,853 Times in 5,993 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

Time to start growing your own.

Assholes.

Tom
The following 6 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 01.08.2013, 09:28
moggy's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Thurgau (& London, UK)
Posts: 1,243
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 538 Times in 366 Posts
moggy has an excellent reputationmoggy has an excellent reputationmoggy has an excellent reputationmoggy has an excellent reputation
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

So the Plain Packaging in Australia has not worked then.

Plus another way to increase extra Tax revenue for Australian government.
The following 3 users would like to thank moggy for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 01.08.2013, 09:31
AbFab's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Züri Oberland
Posts: 6,087
Groaned at 293 Times in 190 Posts
Thanked 6,878 Times in 2,471 Posts
AbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

Is this the monthly EF anti-smoking thread??
The following 16 users would like to thank AbFab for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 01.08.2013, 09:37
Corbets's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zug, CH
Posts: 2,186
Groaned at 98 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 3,631 Times in 1,275 Posts
Corbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

Sin taxes are a ridiculous way to go about that "education".

Clearly, hunting permits and open season on smokers is a better solution!
The following 6 users would like to thank Corbets for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 01.08.2013, 09:45
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,814
Groaned at 38 Times in 21 Posts
Thanked 1,339 Times in 765 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

Quote:
View Post
Is this the monthly EF anti-smoking thread??
Could be. If enough people take part ;-)
That said, while the idea to highly tax a commodity with an inelastic demand curve is tempting, the way it works in practice is that people will try to find a way around the taxation.
In East-Germany, a lot of people now (illegally) buy smuggled cigarettes.
Catching smugglers, dealers and consumers of these cigarettes ties up a ridiculous amount of police-forces - with little impact "on the streets".
At the same time, the smuggling-routes for cigarettes pave way for more serious drugs...

So, at some point, people will figure out a way to avoid the taxation.

I'm not saying, it shouldn't be taxed at all - but the mechanisms of the market are really unstoppable and the state can influence the behavior of its citizens only to a certain degree via the taxation route.
The following 5 users would like to thank rainer_d for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 01.08.2013, 09:59
jacek's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aargau
Posts: 6,249
Groaned at 63 Times in 47 Posts
Thanked 3,279 Times in 1,950 Posts
jacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

This thread makes me quit ...

The following 2 users would like to thank jacek for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 01.08.2013, 10:35
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 42
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 37 Times in 16 Posts
rpeg has earned some respectrpeg has earned some respect
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

Quote:
View Post
That said, while the idea to highly tax a commodity with an inelastic demand curve is tempting, the way it works in practice is that people will try to find a way around the taxation.
In East-Germany, a lot of people now (illegally) buy smuggled cigarettes.
Given that Australia is an island I'm not sure this is as large of a problem given that you can't just hop in the car and drive over the border...or at least it hasn't really appeared as a huge problem on this show:
  #9  
Old 01.08.2013, 11:32
Slaphead's Avatar
Moderato espressivo
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,019
Groaned at 38 Times in 33 Posts
Thanked 7,697 Times in 2,380 Posts
Slaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

Quote:
View Post
The aussie government is launching a major fund raiser to the tune of circa 4.4Bn CHF courtesy of a 12.5% increase in taxes per year over the next 4 years on cigarettes


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-0...crease/4857244


CONGRATULATIONS this is a brilliant initiative by a government pushing the price of lung killers to 23-24CHF a packet. We need to educate the swiss to do likewise

A brilliant initiative? You mean a brilliant initiative in same way a heroin dealer gets their customers hooked, and then when there's enough customers they hike the price to astronomical levels. Governments that take this approach to the smoking problem are really nothing more than drug dealers by proxy.

Why not make tobacco products illegal? Surely lack of available product would make for a more convincing argument for the smoker to give up than simply price hikes. Smokers are addicts, and as with addicts of other drugs, they will find a way to pay the price. One has to question the morality of governments that allows a known dangerous and addictive product to remain freely available while at the same time cashing in on it.

So, where does this money go? Healthcare I hear you cry. Well does it? Consider what I'm about to say next. Type "health care costs for smokers" and you'll see articles say that smoking related illnesses cost so many billions per year. I've no reason to dispute those figures, but how many billions are spent on non smoking related illnesses?

Sadly people who live a healthy life eventually die, but in general they do it later in life than a smoker. Also people that live a healthy lifestyle don't just live perfectly healthy until one day they stop. The last few years of life are typically ones of gradually failing health, needing more and more medial care until eventually a cancer or serious infection takes them (nobody simply dies of old age). The same is true of smokers, but they just do it earlier. Remove tobacco related products out of the equation and everybody will still need the same level of medical care except it won't due to smoking related illnesses. Basically there is little or no net difference in total cost of medical care between a smoker and a non smoker.

So, if the extra revenue raised from the sale of cigarettes is not actually needed to fund the healthcare costs of a smoker then it's obvious to see why governments are not very keen on implementing the only real solution to the smoking problem, which would be to totally outlaw all tobacco products.

I'm a smoker, and therefore an addict. As such price rises don't deter me, however if the only sensible solution was implemented then I wouldn't be able to smoke, and as such I would fully support a total ban on tobacco products. It would hurt at first but I see this as the only way I'll ever give up. If governments really wanted people to give up then this is exactly what they would do.
__________________
...allegedly.
  #10  
Old 01.08.2013, 12:01
TiMow's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Fribourg
Posts: 8,142
Groaned at 248 Times in 164 Posts
Thanked 9,759 Times in 4,178 Posts
TiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

Quote:
View Post
The aussie government is launching a major fund raiser to the tune of circa 4.4Bn CHF courtesy of a 12.5% increase in taxes per year over the next 4 years on cigarettes


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-0...crease/4857244


CONGRATULATIONS this is a brilliant initiative by a government pushing the price of lung killers to 23-24CHF a packet. We need to educate the swiss to do likewise

"AussiSwiss is dead ....... long live AussieSwiss"
The following 5 users would like to thank TiMow for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 01.08.2013, 12:57
Upthehatters2008's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: In the kitchen at parties.
Posts: 4,999
Groaned at 214 Times in 128 Posts
Thanked 6,078 Times in 2,378 Posts
Upthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

Reading all this , I need a ciggy now. Nice one Wallabies.
The following 2 users would like to thank Upthehatters2008 for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 01.08.2013, 13:03
adrianlondon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 8,066
Groaned at 154 Times in 136 Posts
Thanked 19,681 Times in 5,339 Posts
adrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

I'm all for letting people kil themselves so long as it has nothing more than a minor impact on my own life. As slaphead says, we're all going to die at some point.

I don't like smoking venues and the fact many (if not most) smokers view throwing butts on the ground as not being littering means I often don't like smokers either.

But cigaratte prices should simply be set by supply and demand. Again, as slaphead says (hey, it was a good post ), the health related costs don't add up to much (as a difference to those who don't smoke).

So I'm all in favour of making it harder and harder to find a PLACE to smoke (ie I'm fully in favour of banning smoking in spublic buildings and even public spaces if it makes much difference) but am not in favour of tax rises.

People will simply start smoking imported cigarettes, or roll their own. Or, if the price is so high, buying and smoking fake/counterfit ones.
The following 12 users would like to thank adrianlondon for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 01.08.2013, 13:14
Deep Purple's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: England
Posts: 5,015
Groaned at 12 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 4,479 Times in 2,190 Posts
Deep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

Smoking is a horrible, disgusting, addictive habit that I wouldn't encourage anyone to take up. ..... BUT .....

smokers have the right to decide what they do. Excessive taxation and smoking bans are not the right way to educate people.

There are plenty of other things that do more harm than smoking
The following 7 users would like to thank Deep Purple for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 01.08.2013, 13:15
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 2,888
Groaned at 78 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 4,310 Times in 1,702 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

Quote:
View Post
People will simply start smoking imported cigarettes, or roll their own. Or, if the price is so high, buying and smoking fake/counterfit ones.
When I was 15 yrs old, my friend and I thought it was cool to smoke. One day I couldn't sneak any ciggies from my stepdad, so we decided to roll up some leaves in a page of bible paper and smoke it.

Not good.
The following 4 users would like to thank Pancakes for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 01.08.2013, 13:25
moggy's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Thurgau (& London, UK)
Posts: 1,243
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 538 Times in 366 Posts
moggy has an excellent reputationmoggy has an excellent reputationmoggy has an excellent reputationmoggy has an excellent reputation
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

Quote:
View Post
Sin taxes are a ridiculous way to go about that "education".

Clearly, hunting permits and open season on smokers is a better solution!

Yes, definitely Education is the correct formula.

My 1st Brother had an education at school when a very early teenage with graphic diagrams for the lungs & other organs, think it was using one of those can not remember the name, those single shot film thingies.

He came home to our mother all enthused with what he saw.

He never touched a cigarette after that*, is now officially retired.

He is grateful for the tax revenue that smokers pay.

I never had that education at school & don't think any of my other siblings had it either!


*actually I must ask him, if he ever tried one before that education.
  #16  
Old 01.08.2013, 13:29
Ace1's Avatar
ModerAce
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Alsace, Basel, Engelberg
Posts: 4,769
Groaned at 128 Times in 93 Posts
Thanked 6,199 Times in 2,834 Posts
Ace1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

Quote:
View Post
When I was 15 yrs old, my friend and I thought it was cool to smoke. One day I couldn't sneak any ciggies from my stepdad, so we decided to roll up some leaves in a page of bible paper and smoke it.

Not good.
Tea leaves? I recall one of my elder brothers doing that. As you say, not good
  #17  
Old 01.08.2013, 13:35
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 2,888
Groaned at 78 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 4,310 Times in 1,702 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

Quote:
View Post
Tea leaves?
No, worse. Leaves from our back yard.

The following 2 users would like to thank Pancakes for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 01.08.2013, 14:01
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,814
Groaned at 38 Times in 21 Posts
Thanked 1,339 Times in 765 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

Quote:
View Post
A brilliant initiative? You mean a brilliant initiative in same way a heroin dealer gets their customers hooked, and then when there's enough customers they hike the price to astronomical levels. Governments that take this approach to the smoking problem are really nothing more than drug dealers by proxy.
In a way, yes.

Quote:
View Post
Why not make tobacco products illegal? Surely lack of available product would make for a more convincing argument for the smoker to give up than simply price hikes.
No, unfortunately not.
Similar lines of thought lead to the prohibition in the US - and see where that has taken them...

Quote:
View Post
Smokers are addicts, and as with addicts of other drugs, they will find a way to pay the price. One has to question the morality of governments that allows a known dangerous and addictive product to remain freely available while at the same time cashing in on it.
I think, with the recent events surrounding the "Snowden"-case, we can surely put all dreams of any government acting "morally correct" to a rest.
It simply does not exist.

Quote:
View Post
So, where does this money go? Healthcare I hear you cry. Well does it? Consider what I'm about to say next. Type "health care costs for smokers" and you'll see articles say that smoking related illnesses cost so many billions per year. I've no reason to dispute those figures, but how many billions are spent on non smoking related illnesses?

Sadly people who live a healthy life eventually die, but in general they do it later in life than a smoker. Also people that live a healthy lifestyle don't just live perfectly healthy until one day they stop. The last few years of life are typically ones of gradually failing health, needing more and more medial care until eventually a cancer or serious infection takes them (nobody simply dies of old age). The same is true of smokers, but they just do it earlier. Remove tobacco related products out of the equation and everybody will still need the same level of medical care except it won't due to smoking related illnesses. Basically there is little or no net difference in total cost of medical care between a smoker and a non smoker.
A recent article in Tagesanzeiger (http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wirtscha...story/21908184) suggests that the equation is not that simple.

Quote:
View Post

So, if the extra revenue raised from the sale of cigarettes is not actually needed to fund the healthcare costs of a smoker then it's obvious to see why governments are not very keen on implementing the only real solution to the smoking problem, which would be to totally outlaw all tobacco products.
The revenue from tobacco is, unless your government has made some special provisions, just thrown into the bucket with all other tax-revenue and then distributed as needed.
A rather extreme example of this is Germany, where, after several price-hikes and the above mentioned swing to smuggled cigarettes, tax-revenue declined and, together with people driving less with their cars (again, due to high taxes and economic realities) led to a budget-problem at the national pension-fund - because that is a common place where this sort of money ends up.

Quote:
View Post

I'm a smoker, and therefore an addict. As such price rises don't deter me, however if the only sensible solution was implemented then I wouldn't be able to smoke, and as such I would fully support a total ban on tobacco products. It would hurt at first but I see this as the only way I'll ever give up. If governments really wanted people to give up then this is exactly what they would do.
Sadly, it doesn't work that way in the real world.
But what does seem to work (to a degree) is to make it as inconvenient for people to light up in as many situations and places as possible.
Thus the smoking-ban in restaurants, bars, public areas etc.pp.
Recently, a guy was thrown out of his rented flat in Germany because he smoked too much. That might seem extreme, unless you live in the flat above and the smoke is seeping through his ceiling (there are threads about that here, too...).
This user would like to thank rainer_d for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 01.08.2013, 14:15
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,814
Groaned at 38 Times in 21 Posts
Thanked 1,339 Times in 765 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

Quote:
View Post
Given that Australia is an island I'm not sure this is as large of a problem given that you can't just hop in the car and drive over the border...or at least it hasn't really appeared as a huge problem on this show:

So there are no "hard" drugs in Australia, either?
I assure you, once a profit can be made (and the reward beats the risks), there will be people smuggling-in the stuff. The market never fails in this respect. Unfortunately.

That's also the reason why the "war on drugs" was a failure to begin with - and I have a hard time believing that a people that believes in privatizing pretty much everything from garbage-collection to the military wasn't able to see the forces of market would adapt to that problem, too.

Don't get me wrong: market-forces aren't a cure to everything - but they can at least explain a lot of otherwise irrational behavior.
  #20  
Old 01.08.2013, 15:02
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 81
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 52 Times in 29 Posts
Biol_bloke has no particular reputation at present
Re: Lets launch a war on smokers

Quote:
View Post

CONGRATULATIONS this is a brilliant initiative by a government pushing the price of lung killers to 23-24CHF a packet. We need to educate the swiss to do likewise

LoL. Congratulating the ALP for raising a tax is like congratulating an alcoholic for getting drunk.

And yep, people do smuggle tobacco into Australia:

http://www.news.com.au/national-news...-1226602806152
Closed Thread




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Smokers on railway stations CoderMark Complaints corner 340 30.04.2014 16:44
How smokers and non smokers can live together Wallabies Daily life 14 06.10.2012 21:47
Smokers Vs Non-smokers kaihayden General off-topic 125 18.08.2012 14:19
Suggestions on UK short term lets... Ms.Welsh General off-topic 4 06.02.2011 17:30


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 14:30.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0