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  #581  
Old 17.06.2014, 14:09
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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No. There is only one "pro-Ukrainian" way...
That's an opinion presented as fact.

There is a pro-Ukraine way (a 'how') that wants the status quo, with oligarchs running everything from a central government in Kiev.

There is also a pro-Ukraine way (a 'how') that wants a more federated system of government, where political power is shared between Kiev and a federation of local regional governments.

So there are at least two pro-Ukraine perspectives. And whether you like (or admit) it or not, yours — the status quo perspective — isn't the only one.

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...As for connections - Russians and Ukrainians were able to live together in Ukraine without major issues for very long time, until the very deliberate efforts to set the two against each other, break the country apart and start a civil war were started by Russia when Putin came to power...
Get your own facts right. It was the US that encouraged and supported a violent coup — not Russia. It was the US state department that sent its high-level personnel into Kiev to encourage and support the coup, while Russia stayed out.

You entered this conversation pretending to be "not here to argue or convince by any means." But you appear determined to promote the fact-free presupposition that there is "propaganda/biases in the" Russian media only — which is false.
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  #582  
Old 17.06.2014, 15:59
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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That's an opinion presented as fact.

There is a pro-Ukraine way (a 'how') that wants the status quo, with oligarchs running everything from a central government in Kiev.

There is also a pro-Ukraine way (a 'how') that wants a more federated system of government, where political power is shared between Kiev and a federation of local regional governments.

So there are at least two pro-Ukraine perspectives.
There is no second pro-Ukrainian "how" amongst the options you mentioned - the "federalisation" path is the usual trick thrown in by Kremlin to cover the real intention - to break off Eastern Ukraine and to move it under the influence of Russia through the establishment of local "federated" governments fully controlled and manipulated by Russia. Haha, what a pro-Ukrainian "how"!

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It was the US that encouraged and supported a violent coup — not Russia. It was the US state department that sent its high-level personnel into Kiev to encourage and support the coup, while Russia stayed out.
There is no doubt the US was very interested in getting rid of the highly criminal and easily manipulated by Russia Yanukovich and offered some help there, however it doesn't mean the US made a coup in Ukraine or even had any deciding influence in it. Go and say it to people in Kiev and ask them how many US agents they met on barricades there or how much helps they got from US - just take a large umbrella to hide from eggs that will surely fly your way

The problem is not the US. The US is just a temporary anti-Russian ally with its own agenda here. The problem is Russia not staying out of Ukraine and starting a war there.

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You entered this conversation pretending to be "not here to argue or convince by any means." But you appear determined to promote the fact-free presupposition that there is "propaganda/biases in the" Russian media only — which is false.
Never said that - you need to read more carefully. There is lots of propaganda in the US media as well, which annoys me and I'm sure annoys you. However, the fact that US has its own agenda in all this and uses its own propaganda doesn't justify Russia's invasion of Ukraine in any way. That's all. All the best.
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  #583  
Old 17.06.2014, 16:37
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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There is no second pro-Ukrainian "how" amongst the options you mentioned - the "federalisation" path is the usual trick thrown in by Kremlin to cover the real intention - to break off Eastern Ukraine and to move it under the influence of Russia through the establishment of local "federated" governments fully controlled and manipulated by Russia...
Your claim would be more credible if you were able to provide concrete, unequivocal substantiation of your assertion that federalisation is a "trick thrown in by the Kremlin" which intends to "fully control and manipulate" regional government.

Meanwhile, it is quite clear that you have a very narrow view of what could possibly be "pro-Ukraine" — i.e., the status quo and only the status quo.

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...There is no doubt the US was very interested in getting rid of the highly criminal and easily manipulated by Russia Yanukovich and offered some help there, however it doesn't mean the US made a coup in Ukraine or even had any deciding influence in it...
I didn't say they "made a coup" — only that they were actively encouraging and supporting it right there in Kiev, which is an undeniable fact. Also undeniable is that Russia did no such thing.

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...The problem is not the US. The US is just a temporary anti-Russian ally with its own agenda here. The problem is Russia not staying out of Ukraine and starting a war there...
Good luck with keeping the US as "just a temporary anti-Russian ally." Ukraine will be controlled by the US and NATO, and it will not be "temporary." Where's concrete, unequivocal substantiation of your claim that "Russia" is "not staying out of Ukraine and starting a war there"?

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...There is lots of propaganda in the US media as well...
Thanks for admitting as much (though not just the "US media" is delivering US propaganda). When you only rant about "Russian propaganda," your readers have no way of knowing whether you realize the volume of US propaganda being produced.

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...However, the fact that US has its own agenda in all this and uses its own propaganda doesn't justify Russia's invasion of Ukraine in any way...
Where's concrete, unequivocal substantiation of "Russia's invasion of Ukraine"?
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  #584  
Old 17.06.2014, 17:10
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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No. There is only one "pro-Ukrainian" way.

P.S. I of course have no idea about your exact "connexions" with Ukraine, nor intend to underestimate them
You just did.
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  #585  
Old 17.06.2014, 17:44
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Where's concrete, unequivocal substantiation of "Russia's invasion of Ukraine"?
Thousands of Russian militants (from Kuban, Chechnya, Siberia, Moscow - and many of them openly admitting this) already in Eastern Ukraine is not enough? Half of them with the latest Russian-made weapons (AK, RPG, anti-aircraft missiles that shot down a plane at 700m) is also proves little? 100+ of them already sent back to Russia in refrigerator trucks as they are obviously not from Ukraine to be buried there? Several tanks crossing into Ukraine from Russia just last week? Recruitment offices all over Russia secretly hiring former and current soldiers, militia and any other volunteers willing to go to Ukraine and be paid well for it?

Do you need me to show you how to find the hundreds of photos and videos with this on Internet? Could you possibly start with Google yourself to save me some time? Here is some points for the start:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeuwXA1FD1s

http://uainfo.org/yandex/328908-pism...chechency.html

http://censor.net.ua/news/288473/ofi...edinoyi_rossii

http://crime.in.ua/news/20140424/artemovsk

http://news.eizvestia.com/news_abroa...hla-v-chechnyu

Let me know if you need more help, or if you think these images are of self-organized Ukrainian peasants not satisfied with the current status-quo - at that point I promise to give up
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  #586  
Old 17.06.2014, 18:41
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Felix, the source (in the last website) of your "concrete, unequivocal substantiation of Russia's invasion of Ukraine" is so called Kavkaz Center. Why don't you tell us more about it? So that we know where this evidence is actually coming from.

From Wikipedia: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kavkaz_Center
Kavkaz Center is the news portal of the Caucasian Emirate, a militant network aiming to establish an Islamic state in the Caucasus.[4] The organisation is banned in Russia, and it is on the United States' List of Most Wanted Terrorist Organizations.[5
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  #587  
Old 17.06.2014, 19:32
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Where's concrete, unequivocal substantiation of "Russia's invasion of Ukraine"?
Thousands of Russian militants ... already in Eastern Ukraine is not enough?...
Um no — thousands of Russians (militant or otherwise) in Eastern Ukraine do not equal Russia invading Ukraine — which is what your propagandistic statement plainly indicates.

Eastern Ukraine has long been home to thousands of Russians. Neither their presence, nor an influx of sympathizers from across the border, comprise Russia invading Ukraine — unless you can produce compelling, unequivocal corroboration that their presence is officially condoned, authorized or ordered by the Russian government.

Kindly give up parroting the propagandistic, inflammatory mantra of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, based on the mere presence of "militant" Russians in a place where many thousands of Russians have lived for generations, unless and until you can produce concrete, unequivocal substantiation of your claim.
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Old 17.06.2014, 23:23
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Is .Felix the same as Felix. ? Seem like 2 different accounts..
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  #589  
Old 18.06.2014, 00:37
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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"Sympathizers" in tanks, with the latest weapons, and paid a daliy rate?? Sorry, pal, I think you need to fix your head, and then request from your doctor the "compelling, unequivocal" evidences that it is indeed fixed. Apologies if it sounds rude - I just can't resist to have a bit of fun

I'm afraid you are asking the impossible as I can't give up defending the country where I was born just because a couple of individuals who never been to it, doesn't know nor care much about it are asking me to do so. Please proceed with you pro-Russian discussion, and please don't forget to bring up the Stalin's name in it - I'm sure from where you sit he was a nice dude with a soft smile and magnificent moustaches

Bye bye - that was a great discussion, I enjoyed it a lot
I rest my case.
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  #590  
Old 18.06.2014, 00:39
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Is .Felix the same as Felix. ? Seem like 2 different accounts..
Seems like you're on to something there. I suggest contacting a mod for clarification.
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  #591  
Old 18.06.2014, 01:08
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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That's an opinion presented as fact.

There is a pro-Ukraine way (a 'how') that wants the status quo, with oligarchs running everything from a central government in Kiev.

There is also a pro-Ukraine way (a 'how') that wants a more federated system of government, where political power is shared between Kiev and a federation of local regional governments.

So there are at least two pro-Ukraine perspectives. And whether you like (or admit) it or not, yours — the status quo perspective — isn't the only one.


Get your own facts right. It was the US that encouraged and supported a violent coup — not Russia. It was the US state department that sent its high-level personnel into Kiev to encourage and support the coup, while Russia stayed out.

You entered this conversation pretending to be "not here to argue or convince by any means." But you appear determined to promote the fact-free presupposition that there is "propaganda/biases in the" Russian media only — which is false.
About "It was the US that encouraged and supported a violent coup" Do you have concrete, unequivocal substantiation for this statement?
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Old 18.06.2014, 02:15
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Seems like you're on to something there. I suggest contacting a mod for clarification.
I confirm that that they both belong to me and that I opened the second one a while ago when I couldn't remember the password from the first one. But please feel free to start your full investigation into this highly suspicious turn of events that is likely to prove all your previous statements on this thread valid and unequivocal beyond any doubt
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  #593  
Old 18.06.2014, 03:02
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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About "It was the US that encouraged and supported a violent coup" Do you have concrete, unequivocal substantiation for this statement?
Thank you, marton. And to take it further I might also reply to this:

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It was the US state department that sent its high-level personnel into Kiev to encourage and support the coup, while Russia stayed out.
Russia never stayed out of the coup. At the very least, it openly encouraged Yanukovich to use force against demonstrators and was running a full propaganda machine to denigrate what was happening in Kiev and the Ukraine. Not just during the Maidan times - for years before it.

It is true that Ukraine is essentially a battlefield between Russia and the West, but the things Russia has done to Ukraine in this "battle" are much worse already.

It is also true that there is a large enough pro-Russian minority in the Ukraine who hates the West, wants Ukraine to be associated with Russia and even wants the USSR times to come back. This minority however has no moral or any other right to bring the whole country to a totalitarian skip where Russia has already arrived to, or to break the country apart. It has full right to defend Russian language, but it is not what it is doing right now. And please don't tell me that other ethnic Russian's rights were/are serisously restricted in the Ukraine - I'm more than half-Russian myself, and can't speak the Ukrainian properly as it wasn't my native language, but never had any issues due to this in all my life in Ukraine. Same as my mother who is 100% Russian.
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  #594  
Old 18.06.2014, 07:51
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Thank you, marton. And to take it further I might also reply to this:



Russia never stayed out of the coup. At the very least, it openly encouraged Yanukovich to use force against demonstrators and was running a full propaganda machine to denigrate what was happening in Kiev and the Ukraine. Not just during the Maidan times - for years before it.

It is true that Ukraine is essentially a battlefield between Russia and the West, but the things Russia has done to Ukraine in this "battle" are much worse already.

It is also true that there is a large enough pro-Russian minority in the Ukraine who hates the West, wants Ukraine to be associated with Russia and even wants the USSR times to come back. This minority however has no moral or any other right to bring the whole country to a totalitarian skip where Russia has already arrived to, or to break the country apart. It has full right to defend Russian language, but it is not what it is doing right now. And please don't tell me that other ethnic Russian's rights were/are serisously restricted in the Ukraine - I'm more than half-Russian myself, and can't speak the Ukrainian properly as it wasn't my native language, but never had any issues due to this in all my life in Ukraine. Same as my mother who is 100% Russian.
Relax. It is fairly clear that Mr Putin and his crew try to extend Southern Russia and to reduce the size of Ukraine. The point is that "Russians" in the Ukraine may hope, possibly in vain, to get ahead better after joining the Russian Federation. Also see that Ukraine possibly would be better off after "losing" the rust-belt with its outdated heavy industry. Just as Czechia was better off after allowing Slovakia to get out. I can, to some extent, understand your emotions, but emotions are not good advisors
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  #595  
Old 18.06.2014, 09:42
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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About "It was the US that encouraged and supported a violent coup" Do you have concrete, unequivocal substantiation for this statement?
Would you explain what exactly Victiria Nuland was talking about with the US ambassador? What exactly have they been trying to "midwife"?

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  #596  
Old 18.06.2014, 09:52
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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leonie, the links I provided came from a 1-minute Google search. As mentioned in my previous post, you could do your own search to find this and many other images in other sources. Please go ahead with this to satisfy your curiosity as I have no interest in the "Kavkaz Center" and so can't really answer your questions about it.
...
It is possible to find a lot of information in Google search on about anything, even alien abduction stories. This is not a way to prove anything.
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  #597  
Old 18.06.2014, 16:40
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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About "It was the US that encouraged and supported a violent coup" Do you have concrete, unequivocal substantiation for this statement?
Suffering from short term memory loss?

See here and here, or this from 23 April, or this from 11 March. (Back then, the western media was routinely peppered with the statements of high-level US officials openly supporting the coup and accusing Russia of anything they thought would provoke Putin to get involved.)
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  #598  
Old 18.06.2014, 16:45
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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...Russia...openly encouraged Yanukovich to use force against demonstrators...
And the unequivocal evidence for this is...?
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Old 18.06.2014, 16:55
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Suffering from short term memory loss?

See here and here, or this from 23 April, or this from 11 March. (Back then, the western media was routinely peppered with the statements of high-level US officials openly supporting the coup and accusing Russia of anything they thought would provoke Putin to get involved.)
You find the US giving protestors biscuits more convincing than the Russians giving their supporters tanks and anti-aircraft missiles?

And how you perceive the IMF giving the Ukraine a loan as showing the US supporting the coup is beyond all logic.

I do not see any "unequivocal evidence" in your post.
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Old 18.06.2014, 17:09
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Relax. It is fairly clear that Mr Putin and his crew try to extend Southern Russia and to reduce the size of Ukraine. The point is that "Russians" in the Ukraine may hope, possibly in vain, to get ahead better after joining the Russian Federation. Also see that Ukraine possibly would be better off after "losing" the rust-belt with its outdated heavy industry. Just as Czechia was better off after allowing Slovakia to get out. I can, to some extent, understand your emotions, but emotions are not good advisors
Welcome to the discussion. "Relax and enjoy Mr. Putin" is a fabulously cynical advice devoid of integrity and values. Do you demonstrate the same loyalty to your own country? If so, it is lucky to have you as a citizen.

I can, to some extent, understand how it is possible to come up with this advice after being surrounded by the great comfort of Switzerland for a while, and even going to thank you for it as it was an this interesting read.

On a more serious note (for everyone who is wondering why dropping the "the rust-belt" is not an option at all):

- the majority of people inside the "rust-belt" are pro-Ukrainian and have no desire to become Putin's slaves. Additionally, they will be severely oppressed by the new "power". This is already happening in Crimea with people being robbed off their apartments, cars, businesses - I'm aware of two examples with personal acquaintances, and dozens of other ones.

- that part of Ukraine will become an internationally unrecognized territory without a future - similar to Abhasia, Crimea, Transnistria - impossible to get a visa to Europe etc., and other "pleasant" things that go with it.

- that part of Ukraine will be forever used to destabilize and spread terrorism into the rest of the Ukraine. This is exactly the reason why Ukraine can't afford to give up even Donetsk/Luhansk right now (which are the poorest and most depressed regions in the country) as it will all spread into the neighbouring regions as soon as separatists get a bit of ground under their feet. If they get Donetsk/Luhansk, nobody in the right mind could expect them to put down their AKs and take up farming, right?
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