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  #1381  
Old 06.03.2015, 21:26
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Are you serious? The vast majority of people doesn't want to immigrate, they are forced by deteriorating living standards to do so. Imagine during communism you were a simple worker in a factory, but you had an apartment, even a car, could afford a holiday per year at the sea or in the mountains. Now all it's gone and you barely afford to pay your phone, heating, electricity bills, clothes, food etc and at one point you can't do even that. Please don't tell me people are mad about working on constructions sites, without insurance and even appreciation in the host countries, confronted with open racism and discrimination. (those immigrants who steal our jobs, even though we're so lazy we would never bother...because hey, for us life is much more easier and we're ENTITLED)
Prestige immigration/migration is another thing, but not everyone is in this situation.
If life was so great then why do I know so many people who risked their lives running over the minefields? Many of them now with good careers.

About "even a car" Now I ask are you serious? 15 year waiting lists for something awful!

About "people are mad about working on constructions sites" Of course not, but those poor people never had a decent education fitting them for something better; you cannot blame the West for the education failures in their own countries.
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  #1382  
Old 06.03.2015, 22:47
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

I knew I heard this before somewhere...



I stuck around St. Petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain
I rode a tank
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
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  #1383  
Old 06.03.2015, 23:47
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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If life was so great then why do I know so many people who risked their lives running over the minefields? Many of them now with good careers.

About "even a car" Now I ask are you serious? 15 year waiting lists for something awful!

About "people are mad about working on constructions sites" Of course not, but those poor people never had a decent education fitting them for something better; you cannot blame the West for the education failures in their own countries.
Hmmm, this is what you want to believe. Most of them had a decent education for their profession, at the moment they were doing it - which should have been updated, of course, the way these things are done in the West - adult education, evening courses etc. That's an utter lie, to justify the complete lack of plans for these people. But I'm not surprised you think this way, there have been done efforts in this direction. The success stories of factories which continued to exist and produce would make a sufficiently strong counterargument for your theory.
Of course, if there will be no more production/factories in the East, and they will produce nothing, and import everything....indeed, why bother. The West needs cheap labour, even if they criticise the phenomenon of work migration.

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  #1384  
Old 07.03.2015, 02:36
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Hmmm, this is what you want to believe. Most of them had a decent education for their profession, at the moment they were doing it - which should have been updated, of course, the way these things are done in the West - adult education, evening courses etc. That's an utter lie, to justify the complete lack of plans for these people. But I'm not surprised you think this way, there have been done efforts in this direction. The success stories of factories which continued to exist and produce would make a sufficiently strong counterargument for your theory.
Of course, if there will be no more production/factories in the East, and they will produce nothing, and import everything....indeed, why bother. The West needs cheap labour, even if they criticise the phenomenon of work migration.
Not sure what is the point you are making.

I know people from East Germany who managed to cross the border before the wall fell down.
One is now the finance director of a Swiss company that has a turnover in multiple billions and the other is a "chief doctor" in a Berlin hospital. These are just examples, I know many more.

There are a lot of opportunities in the West.

Of course there were many people who did not educate themselves and did not grasp the opportunities available. That was the basic Soviet problem; many people were in some way institutionalised and lost the ability to "push" themselves and to make the best of themselves.

Expecting somebody else to create a plan for you and to manage your career for you is not the way it works in the West; perhaps that is not good but that is the way it is.
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  #1385  
Old 07.03.2015, 10:46
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Not sure what is the point you are making.

I know people from East Germany who managed to cross the border before the wall fell down.
One is now the finance director of a Swiss company that has a turnover in multiple billions and the other is a "chief doctor" in a Berlin hospital. These are just examples, I know many more.

There are a lot of opportunities in the West.

Of course there were many people who did not educate themselves and did not grasp the opportunities available. That was the basic Soviet problem; many people were in some way institutionalised and lost the ability to "push" themselves and to make the best of themselves.

Expecting somebody else to create a plan for you and to manage your career for you is not the way it works in the West; perhaps that is not good but that is the way it is.

The Problem in the Soviet Block was not a lack of education, but the point that not just the economy in general but also the careers of the normal
people were centrally planned. Personal self-determination and personal initiative and civil courage was not exactly encouraged -- and to speak about personal opinions even less. To flee out of countries like East Germany needed a lot of courage, excellent planning, thorough Organisation etc --- not so easy for average persons. And let s not forget that cultural things and thelike were either free of charge or cheap
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  #1386  
Old 07.03.2015, 11:21
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Not sure what is the point you are making.

I know people from East Germany who managed to cross the border before the wall fell down.
One is now the finance director of a Swiss company that has a turnover in multiple billions and the other is a "chief doctor" in a Berlin hospital. These are just examples, I know many more.
.
Oh, of course there are numerous success stories with people from the Eastern block, not only from East Germany. Do you want me to bother looking for them? I can do that, but that's not the point of our discussion.
You are so wrapped up in the cold war mentality, the good (West) vs. the evil (East) you can't even understand the point I'm trying to make. I'm not disputing the lack of civil liberties (e.g. freedom of speech) which have undermined communism, or fall of centralised economies in the Eastern part of the continent and determined many people to look for a better life.
What I'm saying is there was no "Marshall plan" for the Eastern European countries, even though it would have been much simpler to set them on the right track after the cold war.

Instead, it was preferred the "laissez faire" attitude, the disassembling of their industries was even encouraged and systematically pursued (the new mantra used to be - privatise, privatise everything and in any conditions (i.e. price, contractual obligations etc.) because the new owners will bring innovative measures and good management - nothing more false, as the new owners just bought factories in order to lock their gates up). One example: in only 3 years, in the early 90s, my country lost 2 millions jobs in the industrial sector. That was only the beginning.
I remember a rather interesting interview with a Spanish (proud Castilian) investor and manager in agriculture. He visited Romania in the '70s and was amazed at the big production and efficiency (mechanisation, distribution channels) in a milk farm. During that time, in his native village the peasants were collecting a few litres of milks and placed the recipients at the front of the gate, waiting for somebody with a cart to come and pick the rather modest load up. Now things are reversed. It's just an example. Of course we have the big producers in France, Italy etc we shouldn't really make a competition for.

In an absence of a real plan for Ukraine (Moldova and who else want to join the club), there will be only a depopulation of the country.

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There are a lot of opportunities in the West.
.
Exactly, whereas my point is that we expect a lot more opportunities in the East. Mass emigration/migration is not a solution.

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Of course there were many people who did not educate themselves and did not grasp the opportunities available. That was the basic Soviet problem; many people were in some way institutionalised and lost the ability to "push" themselves and to make the best of themselves.

Expecting somebody else to create a plan for you and to manage your career for you is not the way it works in the West; perhaps that is not good but that is the way it is.
A simple reality check would show that education is a top priority for many Eastern Europeans, and despite many barriers they do succeed in top notch jobs outside their countries of origins.
Of course there were/are people who didn't do the right things, as there obviously are the same types well represented in the West too (one can say due to nanny, welfare states)....so, not sure where are you heading to. It's the old dichotomy, I see.
My last 2 cents on this subject: if the West wants Ukraine it better also have a recovery plan (unlike 25 years ago)....beautiful lies and democratic ideals, excellent translations from French authors and sensible American music will NOT keep people fed, warm, clothed or "entertained" for a long time.
This is all.
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  #1387  
Old 07.03.2015, 19:08
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

After the iron curtain fell it was basically a land grab and western investors were corrupting left and right to put their hands on whatever they could for silly cheap money, while the communists turned into capitalists became governors of the western empires. That's maybe a bit exaggerated but crazy fortunes were made by former party and secret services people wherever you look.
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  #1388  
Old 08.03.2015, 12:38
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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After the iron curtain fell it was basically a land grab and western investors were corrupting left and right to put their hands on whatever they could for silly cheap money, while the communists turned into capitalists became governors of the western empires. That's maybe a bit exaggerated but crazy fortunes were made by former party and secret services people wherever you look.

Dad in 1959 was approached by a 75%Russian colleague to start a Business working with the USSR but rejected, saying it was far too early. Mr B... died in 1964 (aged 70 only). When the Iron Curtain fell, Dad told me NOW would be the time for the projects of Genia B....... and I would join the party immediately
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  #1389  
Old 11.03.2015, 01:22
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Another analysis of the causes of the Russian aggression:
http://www.newsweek.com/putins-invas...me-west-311996

And of Russlandsversteher (who don't understand anything):
http://beta.nzz.ch/meinung/debatte/w...sie-1.18498593
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  #1390  
Old 12.03.2015, 18:09
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Report in the Guardian here from the Royal United Services Institute (Who? ) which restates that Russian artillery shelled Ukrainian positions from inside Russian territory.

It also claims "that a total of 42,000 Russian troops from 117 combat and combat-support units have been involved, either being rotated in and out of the front lines in Ukraine or pouring artillery fire from inside Russia."

and claims “rebel formations have in essence been used as cannon fodder”

and claims "there are insufficient resources – military and financial – under the Kremlin’s command to sustain military operations at the current level for over a year: the military capabilities required to carry out the operation are already reaching their limits" - Of course a peacetime army is quite differently resourced than a wartime one. I could believe there is a big drain on munitions, fuel and such?
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  #1391  
Old 12.03.2015, 18:33
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Report in the Guardian here from the Royal United Services Institute (Who?)
British security and defense think tank since 1831.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_U...ices_Institute
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  #1392  
Old 14.03.2015, 18:35
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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In Zurich, protesters chanted: "Stop War in Donbass!", "No to NATO's Eastward Expansion" and "No to Arms Supplies to Ukraine!" The demonstration was attended by citizens of Switzerland and Germany.
....

The organizers said the local citizens showed great interest to the demonstrations. The next anti-war event dedicated to the Donbass crisis is planned on March 14 in the capital Bern.
http://tass.ru/en/world/780275

Massive turn out today for the pro-Russian protest announced in Russian state media, LOL. Anyone from EF?

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  #1393  
Old 14.03.2015, 18:48
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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KIEV, Ukraine (AP) -- Ukraine says it has placed a formal request with the United Nations for a peacekeeping mission to be deployed in its eastern regions, where a cease-fire between government and Russian-backed separatist forces is in place.


Foreign Ministry spokesman Yevhen Perebiynis said Friday that the size and scope of the proposed mission would be worked out in consultation with the U.N.


A mission would need backing from all five permanent members of the Security Council, however, and Russia is likely to resist the move.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT
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  #1394  
Old 16.03.2015, 20:50
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Exactly one year ago the people of Crimea have made their decision on the status of Crimea. Yesterday the Russian TV has shown the documentary about these events -- very interesting film. I hope it is coming soon with English subtitles Crimea -- the road home.
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  #1395  
Old 16.03.2015, 21:17
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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  #1396  
Old 17.03.2015, 00:46
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Exactly one year ago the people of Crimea have made their decision on the status of Crimea. Yesterday the Russian TV has shown the documentary about these events -- very interesting film. I hope it is coming soon with English subtitles Crimea -- the road home.
About "Exactly one year ago the people of Crimea have made their decision on the status of Crimea."

Oh come on; even Putin has now admitted on television that the whole Crimea story was driven by Russia and had nothing to do with democratic votes.
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  #1397  
Old 17.03.2015, 14:55
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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About "Exactly one year ago the people of Crimea have made their decision on the status of Crimea."

Oh come on; even Putin has now admitted on television that the whole Crimea story was driven by Russia and had nothing to do with democratic votes.
And call me crazy, but I have doubts the documentary presents both sides equally and fairly.
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Old 17.03.2015, 15:14
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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In terms of economic sanctions against Russia from the west, I wonder what potential impact the newly formed BRICS Bank will have, not just now but in the near future.

http://www.voanews.com/content/analy...n/1973248.html

This is an entity that neither USA nor Germany (World Bank, IMF) have any control over and it could conceivably be used to fund pipeline work and other resource development funding that would/could ultimately benefit Russia, as well as the other BRICS nations. In other words it could be used to negate sanctions imposed by the west.
About "This is an entity that neither USA nor Germany (World Bank, IMF) have any control over"

Now New Zealand, UK, France and Germany have all applied to join the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank so these countries may have more control than you expected?

edit: Italy has also applied

Last edited by marton; 17.03.2015 at 15:35.
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Old 17.03.2015, 16:40
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Putin, like most criminals, often do themselves in when bragging about their crimes...

Quote:
"The documentary includes three interesting admissions by Putin:
  1. He admits that he personally oversaw the operation by Russian Special Forces to seize control of administrative buildings, airports and Ukrainian military bases in Crimea.
  2. He admits that he personally ordered the annexation of Crimea.
  3. Even before the seizure of Crimea, he admits that Russian Special Forces illegally crossed the Ukrainian international border on at least two occasions in order to try and rescue fleeing Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.

We have long been aware of these facts, but this documentary was the first time that Putin himself personally admitted it. The documentary could therefore prove useful in a future Hague prosecution."
http://uatoday.tv/news/russian-crime...al-415697.html
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Old 17.03.2015, 23:24
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Putin, like most criminals, often do themselves in when bragging about their crimes...

Even before the seizure of Crimea, he admits that Russian Special Forces illegally crossed the Ukrainian international border on at least two occasions in order to try and rescue fleeing Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.

http://uatoday.tv/news/russian-crime...al-415697.html
When the Russian Special Forces crossed the Ukrainian international border to rescue the Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich, don't you think this cannot be illegal by definition? Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich certainly had authorized his own rescue He still was the elected president so he could have allowed the Russians legally get into the country.
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