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  #521  
Old 15.10.2015, 16:24
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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They only examined the plane wreck, no? For a case a lot more would need to be taken into account, most of all information only both military could provide. Now, there's an obvious problem: At least one side would incriminate themselves.

Additionally, this is a commision, not a court. They don't rule or issue a verdict.

There are two Dutch led investigations into the Malaysian MH17 crash.
One is a purely technical investigation which has completed and issued its report.
The other is a criminal investigation which is ongoing and is collecting evidence from multiple sources.


BTW, I hope the Russians will now release the Ukranian fighter pilot held in protective custody; remember the guy who provided the story about a Ukraine fighter shooting down the 777


Another BTW, Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte called on Russia to cooperate fully with the criminal investigation into who is responsible for the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 with 298 people onboard.
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Old 15.10.2015, 16:53
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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On July 21, just days after the crash, the Russian Defense Ministry claimed that that a Ukrainian Air Force Su-25 fighter jet had been tailing MH17 and may have shot it down. Russia's Investigative Committee has claimed that a Ukrainian soldier gave evidence suggesting MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile. An October 2014 documentary broadcast by the Russia's state-owned TV channel, RT, which was formerly known as Russia Today, further publicized that theory.


Here, Russia complains that the air-to-air missile theory "is practically not presented" in the report. Dutch investigators, however, says the issue is "adequately addressed" and that they are “not aware of any evidence that suggests that other weapon systems both capable of causing the crash and containing the distinct pre-formed fragments were present in the region."

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"Other possible scenarios that could have led to the disintegration and crash of the [airplane] were considered, analyzed, and excluded," they wrote.
Russian officials, however, sought to reword that specific sentence to read: "There exist other scenarios that could lead to in-flight break-up of the aircraft" -- an assertion that would dilute the definitive tone of the report.
The Dutch report rejected that suggestion outright: "The comment is not adopted as it is correct to state that the other scenarios are all excluded."
Russia was pushing all kinds of scenarios like the SU-25, the Dutch investigation dismissed them all accordingly.

http://www.rferl.org/content/mh17-du.../27304720.html
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  #523  
Old 15.10.2015, 18:05
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

As was already posted, the pro-Russians shot down several Ukraine planes with BUK missiles before the MH 17 tragedy.
After MH 17 the rebels completely stopped firing BUKs. The simple explanation is the Russians realised that the rebels could not be trusted with such a powerful weapon and took it away.


No doubt some people will come up with some complex, tortuous and unlikely theories to explain why the rebels stopped firing BUKs.
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  #524  
Old 16.10.2015, 13:47
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

At the moment, a Dutch criminal inquiry (with contributors from Malaysia, Australia & Belgium) is working on determining who is at fault. A report will be released in 2016 and then the accused person(s) would have to be prosecuted.

It is expected that the report would argue it was a war crime and those at fault should be punished accordingly. However the bringing them to justice part might be tricky. The proposed independent UN criminal tribunal won't happen thanks to Russia's veto.

A prosecution via the International Criminal Court would be an option but it’s questionable if Russia would decide to cooperate with them, since Russia has no obligation to do so. Thus it seems chances of capturing and then punishing the responsible parties are slim.

Another option would be one of the countries of the victims would prosecute those responsible through domestic courts. (Malaysia and Australia seem most likely to do so)
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  #525  
Old 16.10.2015, 19:23
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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...The proposed independent UN criminal tribunal won't happen thanks to Russia's veto.

A prosecution via the International Criminal Court would be an option but it’s questionable if Russia would decide to cooperate with them, since Russia has no obligation to do so...
I think it bears pointing out that Russia would be much less reluctant to accede to such proceedings if there hadn't been an on-going anti-Russian Western propaganda campaign. All manner of unsubstantiated Russophobic accusations and blame-shifting have been pouring forth from Western media puppets since day one. Under such circumstances only a moron could expect Russia to glibly acquiesce to a Western-dominated tribunal pretending to want only the truth.

From where I sit, if you want another party to trust you to be fair and even-handed, it's best not to pelt them beforehand with empty accusations and vacuous, fact-free condemnations.
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  #526  
Old 16.10.2015, 20:56
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I think it bears pointing out that Russia would be much less reluctant to accede to such proceedings if there hadn't been an on-going anti-Russian Western propaganda campaign. All manner of unsubstantiated Russophobic accusations and blame-shifting have been pouring forth from Western media puppets since day one. Under such circumstances only a moron could expect Russia to glibly acquiesce to a Western-dominated tribunal pretending to want only the truth.

From where I sit, if you want another party to trust you to be fair and even-handed, it's best not to pelt them beforehand with empty accusations and vacuous, fact-free condemnations.

About "All manner of unsubstantiated Russophobic accusations and blame-shifting have been pouring forth from Western media puppets since day one."
The rotten Western media puppets also unfairly mixed in substantiated accusations and they also stayed with the one single explanation that fitted the known facts.


Meanwhile the Russian media puppets were pouring forth ever more bizarre and ever more unlikely alternative and conflicting explanations supported by falsified satellite photos.
They would have been more credible if they had stayed with one story but they could not achieve this because they failed to invent a single credible alternative explanation.


The only people on record firing BUKs in Ukraine during the last four years were the pro-Russian rebels. These BUK firings suddenly stopped after MH17 because the Russians confiscated their toys!


About "if you want another party to trust you to be fair and even-handed, it's best not to pelt them beforehand with empty accusations" Well the Russians have been pelting Ukraine with such empty accusations but this has not discouraged Ukraine from joining the investigation
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  #527  
Old 17.10.2015, 01:36
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Russophobic accusations and blame-shifting have been pouring forth from Western media puppets since day one. Under such circumstances only a moron could expect Russia to glibly acquiesce to a Western-dominated tribunal
The UN, where the tribunal was proposed by Malaysia, is a "Russophobic" and "Western dominated" group? Then why is Russia a permanent member? Why don't they just leave it?
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  #528  
Old 26.02.2016, 09:41
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

«Dutch Prosecutor Opens Doubt on MH17 Evidence»

«Westerbeke has told the selected recipients of his report there is “no video or film footage available from launch or trajectory of the missile”. He implies the investigators have now concluded that widely published photographs of the launch and the missile contrail in the sky are unreliable or false.»

«Sources close to the investigation believe Australian officials are worried by mounting public and political concern in the Dutch parliament and media, charging American and Ukrainian manipulation of the MH17 story.»
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  #529  
Old 26.02.2016, 10:56
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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«Dutch Prosecutor Opens Doubt on MH17 Evidence»

«Westerbeke has told the selected recipients of his report there is “no video or film footage available from launch or trajectory of the missile”. He implies the investigators have now concluded that widely published photographs of the launch and the missile contrail in the sky are unreliable or false.»

«Sources close to the investigation believe Australian officials are worried by mounting public and political concern in the Dutch parliament and media, charging American and Ukrainian manipulation of the MH17 story.»
This report is based on a letter sent to relatives of the Dutch victims.
There is a copy of the Dutch letter on John Helmer's site which is claimed to be 100% accurate; link is here if you want to practice your Dutch and decide for yourself.

The letter also states the US has provided secret satellite info whereas Russia has so far failed to provide radar images.
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  #530  
Old 26.02.2016, 11:08
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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The letter also states the US has provided secret satellite info whereas Russia has so far failed to provide radar images.
Must have been very secret if you are talking about it

Everything is propoganda. No one is clean, all scum on all sides.
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  #531  
Old 21.03.2016, 07:58
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

The Ever-Curiouser MH-17 Case

«This lack of transparency, of course, has a propaganda value since it leaves in place the widespread public impression that ethnic Russian rebels and Russian President Vladimir Putin were responsible for the 298 deaths, a rush to judgment that Secretary Kerry and other senior U.S. officials (and the Western news media) encouraged in July 2014.»

«[T]here has been little interest in Official Washington to clarify the mystery especially as evidence has emerged implicating elements of the Ukrainian military. For instance, Dutch intelligence has reported (and U.S. intelligence has implicitly confirmed) that the only operational Buk anti-aircraft missile systems in eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, were under the control of the Ukrainian military.»
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  #532  
Old 21.03.2016, 11:54
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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The Ever-Curiouser MH-17 Case

«This lack of transparency, of course, has a propaganda value since it leaves in place the widespread public impression that ethnic Russian rebels and Russian President Vladimir Putin were responsible for the 298 deaths, a rush to judgment that Secretary Kerry and other senior U.S. officials (and the Western news media) encouraged in July 2014.»

«[T]here has been little interest in Official Washington to clarify the mystery especially as evidence has emerged implicating elements of the Ukrainian military. For instance, Dutch intelligence has reported (and U.S. intelligence has implicitly confirmed) that the only operational Buk anti-aircraft missile systems in eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, were under the control of the Ukrainian military.»
So who shot down the Ukranian transport plane on July 14th that was flying so high that only a BUK could reach it? source and source.
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  #533  
Old 22.05.2016, 13:45
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Some families are trying to sue Russia and Mr Putin in the European Court of Human Rights.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36350520
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  #534  
Old 25.05.2016, 21:54
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Some families are trying to sue Russia and Mr Putin in the European Court of Human Rights.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36350520
That won't go far. You need a judgment of facts before you can act on liability. Presuming a right to arbitrarily assign liability violates the principles of both justice and logic. [Oh, but of course it's anti-Russian (and so it fits Washington's narrative), so it must be okay. ]
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  #535  
Old 01.06.2016, 08:40
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

More Game-Playing on MH-17?

Excerpts (emphasis added):
«By refusing to declassify any information for the MH-17 investigation, Washington has succeeded in maintaining the widespread impression that Moscow was responsible for the tragedy without having to prove it.»

«[US] administration officials ultimately decided to keep quiet because to do otherwise would have “reversed the narrative.”»
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  #536  
Old 01.06.2016, 08:58
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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More Game-Playing on MH-17?

Excerpts (emphasis added):
«By refusing to declassify any information for the MH-17 investigation, Washington has succeeded in maintaining the widespread impression that Moscow was responsible for the tragedy without having to prove it.»

«[US] administration officials ultimately decided to keep quiet because to do otherwise would have “reversed the narrative.”»
Strange the author failed to mention on Monday, July 14, 2014 an Antonov AN-26 Ukrainian military transport plane was hit by a missile while flying over eastern Ukraine — at 21,000 feet altitude. That's far beyond the range of a shoulder-fired system like the MANPADS.

Interesting that the author states "Just a day earlier, a Ukrainian fighter flying along the border was shot down by an air-to-air missile (presumably fired by a Russian warplane), according to last October’s Dutch Safety Board report." So the Russians were shooting down Ukraine military aircraft

Last edited by marton; 01.06.2016 at 09:17.
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  #537  
Old 01.06.2016, 09:49
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Strange the author failed to mention on Monday, July 14, 2014 an Antonov AN-26 Ukrainian military transport plane was hit by a missile while flying over eastern Ukraine — at 21,000 feet altitude. That's far beyond the range of a shoulder-fired system like the MANPADS.

Interesting that the author states "Just a day earlier, a Ukrainian fighter flying along the border was shot down by an air-to-air missile (presumably fired by a Russian warplane), according to last October’s Dutch Safety Board report." So the Russians were shooting down Ukraine military aircraft
Well, that part of the Ukraine was effectively a warzone at the time, so miltary aircraft being shot at on the part of either side was not entirely unexpected.

You can argue all day about who was responsible for shooting the aircraft down, however in my mind the responsibility lies with the airlines, not just Malaysia, of whom most were still routing their arcraft over a known warzone where there was a distinct possibility that long range SAMs were likely to be active (Russia was involved and they're not exactly short of long range hi-tech weaponary). They only started diverting around the area after it became widely suspected that MH-17 was shot down.

What I'm saying is that even though Ukrainian airspace wasn't closed, flying over a warzone at any altitude is a stupid thing to do.
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  #538  
Old 01.06.2016, 14:20
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Well, that part of the Ukraine was effectively a warzone at the time, so miltary aircraft being shot at on the part of either side was not entirely unexpected.

You can argue all day about who was responsible for shooting the aircraft down, however in my mind the responsibility lies with the airlines, not just Malaysia, of whom most were still routing their arcraft over a known warzone where there was a distinct possibility that long range SAMs were likely to be active (Russia was involved and they're not exactly short of long range hi-tech weaponary). They only started diverting around the area after it became widely suspected that MH-17 was shot down.

What I'm saying is that even though Ukrainian airspace wasn't closed, flying over a warzone at any altitude is a stupid thing to do.
"miltary aircraft being shot at on the part of either side was not entirely unexpected." Actually it was unexpected since the "rebels" had no planes and also claimed not to have BUK missiles despite shooting down an Antonov AN-26 Ukrainian military transport plane with one.
The Russians claimed to have no military involvement but a Russian plane shot down a Ukrainian one.

"flying over a warzone at any altitude is a stupid thing to do." it was common practice then and still is now. Dozens of passenger planes are still flying over war zones and conflict areas – such as Mali, South Sudan and Sinai – on a daily basis. This includes airlines KLM and Air France as well as other European airlines such as Lufthansa and British Airways.

There is a recent plan "Airlines to stop flying over Middle East war zones" although Syria is full of Russian SAM missiles; the rebels have no aircraft

Source

SAM missile systems are very sophisticated and you can only target a civil airliner if you ignore the clear console warnings
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  #539  
Old 08.06.2016, 18:13
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

A German private detective's apartment and safety locker in Zürich have been searched, the latter's contents confiscated. Dutch authorities are interested in them for their ongoing investigation, a Swiss judge will decide if they are to be handed over.

Blick article (in German).
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Old 27.09.2016, 22:17
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

An international criminal investigation into the shooting down of flight MH17 is likely to conclude that the plane was downed by a Buk missile fired from separatist-controlled territory in eastern Ukraine, diplomats say.

Report expected to say Buk missile was fired from separatist-held area in Ukraine and its launcher smuggled back to Russia

Source

Interested in seeing the details; hope it helps the family and friends of the victims and brings closure.
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