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  #161  
Old 20.07.2014, 03:52
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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IMO, the people in Ukraine are clearly only pawns in a game of chess. Both sides.
Useful idiots, if you allow.
My impression was that the support for sanctions against Russia in Europe (and Germany especially) was weak. Germany is an export-oriented country and Russia is a market...
(There's a reason the CIA et.al. are very interested in German politics - probably more so than German citizens themselves...)
Even worse, support for Ukraine in the population in Germany wasn't particularly strong either. Thanks to the recent bustings of CIA-spies in Germany, the population has somehow woken-up to the fact that while German politicians liked to describe the relations to the US a "partnership", it's more like the US has 0wned Germany for 60 years (and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future) - further fueling anti-american tendencies and a general distrust against Uncle Sam.
No government can engage in a war (or even a conflict) for a longer time without the support of the population. Even in Germany and the US, where people re-vote the same bozos into office time and time again.
People like simple questions, simple answers, simple lines on the map. Black and white.
The conflict was already too complicated, too diffuse and too far away to allow any politician in Europe to devote any real resources to it (diverting them from somebody else).
That has changed now.
The conflict is "real" now, it's close to home (sort of) and it's dead-simple: somebody shot down a passenger plane. People died, kids died. There's exasperation, horror, tears at Departures and Arrivals. There will be (closed) coffins, flowers later on. Public figures signing condolence-books in front of two hundred international journalists, a couple of trending hashtags and Facebook-likes for the live-streamed funeral-service.
Of course, it's not like men will line up in front of army quarters in Germany and demand to be inlisted, so that we can conquer Russia again ("This time, we'll pack winter-boots, really").
Now, no politician can (in his right mind) call for an ending of the sanctions.
It has come down to the "...but think of the children!" level.

It would really be interesting to know how these people (the separatists) supposedly got hold of a couple of BUK missiles.

This (lengthy) report describes a (secret) depot of Russian weapons in Texas:
http://cryptome.org/2014/05/cia-midwest-depot.pdf

And who told them how to operate them - though I admit there might be a lot of people out there who know this back from their time in the military service.
The most complicated weapon I operated during my compulsory military service in Germany was the G3, followed by the P9 pistol. That was a bit more than 20 years ago but I think I could still do that. Though any nine-year old from Afghanistan will probably beat me at it.

The reason I have so many problems "going with the party line" here is that
a) it just fits together so nicely on the surface - too nicely for my taste
b) yet, there is this nagging "Oh, really?"-feeling, the sense that something isn't right even though you can't pin-point it directly - sort of like when you see a very professionally performed magic trick. You know it's a trick but it was performed so professionally that you can't say just how that guy managed to pull it off because the diversion was either so subtle or so overwhelming that you fell for it.

AFAIK, we don't really know to what extend "the West" is already and actually militarily engaged in Ukraine. There are rumors, accusations, rebuttals - but no facts.

We learned a lot about how close the world was to WW3 during and after 1983's "Able Archer" exercise - but only after thirty years.

OK, so much from my chair (no armchair) here...
;-)
About "It would really be interesting to know how these people (the separatists) supposedly got hold of a couple of BUK missiles."

As I already posted, some days before this tragic event the separatists shot down a Ukraine military transport that was flying at over 6,000m so they clearly have BUK missiles and are able to use them. Nobody questioned the shooting down of this Ukraine military transport in terms of "they do not have BUK or the ability to use them".

Please do wake up at the back of the class

It is really dumb to imagine that the Ukraine govt. would risk the existing support of all/most Western nations by pulling such a false flag trick. What would they have to gain?
The Western nations really do not need mass support to apply or increase sanctions. Currently there is no question of going to war which would require more support from people in the involved nations

The rest of your post is just smoke and mirrors; no real facts.
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  #162  
Old 20.07.2014, 04:06
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Please do wake up at the back of the class
I wonder if he actually turned up to the class at all !!
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Old 20.07.2014, 11:23
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

The Dutch (and maybe Aussie) politicians so far have had the harshest responses towards Russia:

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Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans, at a Saturday meeting with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, said he was "shocked by the news we got today of bodies being dragged around, of the site not being treated properly,'' Reuters reported.


"People are angry, furious,'' he said, telling Poroshenko that the Netherlands wanted to know who was responsible for shooting down the airliner.


"Once we have the proof, we will not stop before the people are brought to justice,'' the minister said, according to Reuters report. "Not just the people who pulled the trigger but also those who made it possible. I think the international community needs to step up its efforts in this respect."


Most of the people who died in the aircraft, which took off from the Netherlands' Schiphol airport, were Dutch.
I wonder how this will affect Putin's daughter, who lives in the Netherlands:

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During a blitz visit to the Netherlands, Russian president Vladimir Putin made a stop on Monday in South Holland, in the city of Leiden. It is there that his daughter Maria lives with her Dutch lover.

Maria Putin and Jorrit Faassen (see photo) live in an apartment in a new district - perhaps it is a coincidence - called The Crimean Heat (Krimwijk heet)". They occupy the whole floor of the penthouse. The names of the people are written at the entrance to the building, but a plaque with the names of the inhabitants of the top floor is not filled.
http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/cont...09/17605.shtml
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  #164  
Old 20.07.2014, 12:21
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

The most important pieces of evidence are probably the airplane "black boxes" and the recordings of the conversation between the air traffic control and the pilots. Both of these seem to be missing.

The black boxes first have been claimed to be found by the Ukrainian side. The Ukrainian foreign minister Klimkin said on Friday that:
"The boxes were found and I hope we're working on transferring them to the government commission ... They are in the territory of Ukraine."
http://en.censor.net.ua/news/294476/...reign_minister

Since Friday a lot of conflicting information about the black boxes whereabouts has come up. There have been claims that they were never found, that they have been lost or that the boxes have been even sent to Russia (but the Russian officials said that they don't want them).

This is understandable I suppose that the black boxes are lost or difficult to find -- they are on the rebel-controlled territory. But what about the recordings of the conversation between the air traffic controllers and the crew? On July 17th BBC has reported that:
"Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."
at 15:29 here http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28360784

The Ukrainian government seems to have confiscated the recordings, and now it is unknown where they are. In any case the rebels or the Russians could not have possibly taken them. If the recordings are not found soon then for me this would be the most damaging evidence of the Ukrainian side being involved in shooting down of the airplane.
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  #165  
Old 20.07.2014, 12:24
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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The most important pieces of evidence are probably the airplane "black boxes" and the recordings of the conversation between the air traffic control and the pilots. Both of these seem to be missing.

The black boxes first have been claimed to be found by the Ukrainian side. The Ukrainian foreign minister Klimkin said on Friday that:
"The boxes were found and I hope we're working on transferring them to the government commission ... They are in the territory of Ukraine."
http://en.censor.net.ua/news/294476/...reign_minister

Since Friday a lot of conflicting information about the black boxes whereabouts has come up. There have been claims that they have never been found, that they have been lost or that the boxes have been even sent to Russia (Russian officials said that they don't want them).

This is understandable I suppose that the black boxes are lost or difficult to find -- they are on the rebel-controlled territory. But what about the recordings of the conversation between the air traffic controllers and the crew? On July 17th BBC has reported that:
"Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."
at 15:29 here http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28360784

The Ukrainian side seem to have confiscated the recordings, and now it is unknown where they are. If the recordings are not found soon then for me this would be the most damaging evidence of the Ukrainian side being involved in shooting down of the airplane.
About " If the recordings are not found soon then for me this would be the most damaging evidence of the Ukrainian side being involved in shooting down of the airplane" You think the Ukrainian air traffic control officers told the crew they were going to be shot down?
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  #166  
Old 20.07.2014, 12:33
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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"Just for balance" -- to tip the balance in favor of which side? There is no Soviet Union any more, and in 1983 both Russia and Ukraine have been part of it, together with other 13 republics
Soviet Union Air Defence Forces were centrally led under Headquarters, Voyska PVO and the command structure was independent of the Soviet Armed Forces.
Russian led, Russian responsible.
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  #167  
Old 20.07.2014, 12:36
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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About " If the recordings are not found soon then for me this would be the most damaging evidence of the Ukrainian side being involved in shooting down of the airplane" You think the Ukrainian air traffic control officers told the crew they were going to be shot down?
No, but they could have unwittingly directed the plane towards danger e.g. Asking it to descend to a lower altitude, or into an area where prev military transporters had been hit etc.. We already know that the plane had deviated from its original course (ostensibly for weather)
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  #168  
Old 20.07.2014, 12:38
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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About " If the recordings are not found soon then for me this would be the most damaging evidence of the Ukrainian side being involved in shooting down of the airplane" You think the Ukrainian air traffic control officers told the crew they were going to be shot down?
Maybe this strange story would be clarified:

Quote:
One of the strangest stories to emerge from the wreckage of Malaysian Airlines flight from Amsterdam that was downed in Eastern Ukraine involves a purported Spanish air traffic controller working in Kiev and known only by his blog name—Carlos—and Twitter handle, @spainbuca.

As soon as the plane went down, Carlos started tweeting about how it was shot down by the “Kiev authorities, trying to make it look it might be an attack by pro-Russian forces.”
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/new...h-air-traffic/

But really, these recordings are very important and should be investigated.
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  #169  
Old 20.07.2014, 13:05
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

There would be absolutely no point in trying to hide or destroy recordings of conversations between an air-traffic control and an aircraft as they are broadcast openly on the VHF band 118-137 Mhz. Which means that if there was anything menacing broadcast by the ATC it would be heard by other aircraft in the area, ( of which there were some in range ), and by any member of public holding an air-band VHF receiver in close proximity to the location of the ATC. Furthermore, all messages would be recorded on the cockpit voice recorder of all those aircraft.

The Ukrainian authorities may very well have claimed that the flight data recorders had been found on Ukrainian territory, and they did indeed claim that the recorders were in possession of the rebels, because they do not recognize that rebel held territory is anything but Ukrainian territory.

Sorry... your two conspiracy theories are disproven.

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The most important pieces of evidence are probably the airplane "black boxes" and the recordings of the conversation between the air traffic control and the pilots. Both of these seem to be missing.

The black boxes first have been claimed to be found by the Ukrainian side. The Ukrainian foreign minister Klimkin said on Friday that:
"The boxes were found and I hope we're working on transferring them to the government commission ... They are in the territory of Ukraine."
http://en.censor.net.ua/news/294476/...reign_minister

Since Friday a lot of conflicting information about the black boxes whereabouts has come up. There have been claims that they were never found, that they have been lost or that the boxes have been even sent to Russia (but the Russian officials said that they don't want them).

This is understandable I suppose that the black boxes are lost or difficult to find -- they are on the rebel-controlled territory. But what about the recordings of the conversation between the air traffic controllers and the crew? On July 17th BBC has reported that:
"Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."
at 15:29 here http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28360784

The Ukrainian government seems to have confiscated the recordings, and now it is unknown where they are. In any case the rebels or the Russians could not have possibly taken them. If the recordings are not found soon then for me this would be the most damaging evidence of the Ukrainian side being involved in shooting down of the airplane.
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  #170  
Old 20.07.2014, 13:23
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Well.... if you read through the whole article, it is pretty clear that it looks pretty incredible. In fact, absolutely ludicrous. And the source of this report comes from where ?

"It was first reported on RT en Español, a Spanish-language video and Internet arm of the Russian RIA Novosti news agency."



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Maybe this strange story would be clarified:


http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/new...h-air-traffic/

But really, these recordings are very important and should be investigated.
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  #171  
Old 20.07.2014, 13:25
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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No, but they could have unwittingly directed the plane towards danger e.g. Asking it to descend to a lower altitude, or into an area where prev military transporters had been hit etc.. We already know that the plane had deviated from its original course (ostensibly for weather)
I am sure the Russians have good radar coverage of the area and would already have released any any information potentially damaging to the Ukranian authorities.
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Old 20.07.2014, 13:29
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Well.... if you read through the whole article, it is pretty clear that it looks pretty incredible. In fact, absolutely ludicrous. And the source of this report comes from where ?

"It was first reported on RT en Español, a Spanish-language video and Internet arm of the Russian RIA Novosti news agency."

I agree, this story looks very strange. But then the recordings would clarify all these, right? Why have they been confiscated by the Ukrainians?
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  #173  
Old 20.07.2014, 13:31
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Maybe this strange story would be clarified:


http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/new...h-air-traffic/

But really, these recordings are very important and should be investigated.
How on earth would an air traffic controller get to learn such information?

Anyway look at a map! These rocket systems have a maximum range of 50Km so would have had to be sitting in rebel held territory to take this shot?
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  #174  
Old 20.07.2014, 13:38
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I am sure the Russians have good radar coverage of the area and would already have released any any information potentially damaging to the Ukranian authorities.
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How on earth would an air traffic controller get to learn such information?

Anyway look at a map! These rocket systems have a maximum range of 50Km so would have had to be sitting in rebel held territory to take this shot?
This could have been an air-to-air missile. Is there any evidence that the rocket has been launched from the ground?
The traffic controller could have seen something next to the plane...
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Old 20.07.2014, 13:47
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I agree, this story looks very strange. But then the recordings would clarify all these, right? Why have they been confiscated by the Ukrainians?
The various different stories are about a ground to air missile from pro or anti Russian people or an air to air missile.
Hard to understand how recordings would help? Or do you think the pilot would have seen a missile and identified its source.

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This could have been an air-to-air missile. Is there any evidence that the rocket has been launched from the ground?
The traffic controller could have seen something next to the plane...
As already posted the Russians must have very good radar coverage of this area and long ago would have released this fighter story if they had the radar recordings to prove it.
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Old 20.07.2014, 13:51
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Which would have been heard by all the aircraft up there at that time !!

Or are the pilots of the Singapore Airlines plane and the Air India plane also in on the conspiracy ??



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The traffic controller could have seen something next to the plane...
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Old 20.07.2014, 13:55
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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The various different stories are about a ground to air missile from pro or anti Russian people or an air to air missile.
Hard to understand how recordings would help? Or do you think the pilot would have seen a missile and identified its source.



As already posted the Russians must have very good radar coverage of this area and long ago would have released this fighter story if they had the radar recordings to prove it.
I absolutely agree with you -- so hopefully these recordings will turn up complete and not modified. I wonder why they have been confiscated it the first place.
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Old 20.07.2014, 14:12
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I absolutely agree with you -- so hopefully these recordings will turn up complete and not modified. I wonder why they have been confiscated it the first place.
About " I wonder why they have been confiscated it the first place". Standard practice to put the recordings somewhere safe, usually they are released with report of the crash investigation that often takes months or years to complete.

As others mentioned, there are probably lots of copies anyway.
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Old 20.07.2014, 14:28
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

I think a good first step re:Russia is to say "no World Cup".
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Old 20.07.2014, 14:56
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

State-funded Russian media is floating several strange conspiracy theories trying to say "it wasn't me"... like a kid with a ball standing next to a broken window trying to invent a story that someone else broke it

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...crazy-theories
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