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View Poll Results: Would you favour Scotland opting for indepence from UK
YES........ go for it 31 50.00%
NO.......... hang on for dear life 31 50.00%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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  #221  
Old 27.08.2014, 17:10
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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This is not an argument either! Instead of name calling and telling us we are simply all wrong and our politics stink....why not explain to us HOW Scotland will function after independence? Lets start with a simple one....what currency will you use and who will control it in terms of inflation and interest rates? I don't want to overburden the questions yet, so lets go 1 at a time.

If you don't like that question, what about national security given the current global threats? Who is going to defend Scotland? Where will your counter terrorist unit come from? You national intelligence capability?

I could go on, as we all have been doing, but with only a matter of weeks to go, these questions are unanswered and in return we simply get ridiculed for caring about Scotland!!
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  #222  
Old 27.08.2014, 17:14
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

When I exchanged my Scottish Pounds, I received a different
Exchange rate to my Briitish Pounds.
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  #223  
Old 27.08.2014, 17:15
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Lets start with a simple one....what currency will you use and who will control it in terms of inflation and interest rates? I don't want to overburden the questions yet, so lets go 1 at a time.
Good, finally a bit of sensible debate, thank you Duncan. So as far as I am aware from reading around the subject and watching the WHOLE debate (yes, that's for you Bigblue!):

Option 1 (preferred):
Keep GBP.
The premise here is twofold. If YES happens, and Salmond is given a mandate by the people of Scotland in 2016 (practically guaranteed if YES happens) then he would open discussions with the rUK administration as how best to financially separate Scotland from rUK whilst keeping the pound.

He (and most people I would think) thinks this is the fairest policy - of course the Bank of England nominally has all of the assets and printing facilities (although some Scottish institutions also have these) so he would try to negotiate a fair settlement whereby we form a currency union and Scotland receive a proportional amount of the BoE assets, as well as a proportional amount of the former UK's debts.

He is in a strong position here, one would think, as if rUK refuse to give him any concessions or assets, he could still use GBP, but also walk away from the debts that the UK has built up. Of course, that would leave us at the whims of the BoE in terms of interest rates.

In all likelihood this or something very similar to this would happen, as rUK would be cutting off their nose to spite their face by denying this.

Plan Bs:
1. If rUK deny Scotland any assets, we can continue to use GBP as our defacto currency for as long as we see fit (in the same way that if they wanted to USA or China could also do this) and in our own time transition to whatever we decided was the best option thereafter.

2. We could join the Euro. Despite all the naysaying on here, there is nothing concrete whatsoever to suggest we wouldn't be welcomed into the EU with open arms, just some countries 'monitoring' the situation and Spain getting slightly tetchy about the Basques/Catalans.

3a. We could set up an entirely new currency, create our own central bank and control "ScotPound" (obv made up, no idea what we'd call it yet) and no doubt accept both GBP and "Scotpound" in shops etc throughout Scotland, much as most places in CH accept CHF and EUR.

3b. Same as above, but peg "ScotPound" to GBP. Or EUR. OR whatever made sense.
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  #224  
Old 27.08.2014, 17:25
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Any option that sees westminster give anything to scotland if they split would be political suicide

so

1. wont happen, you leave and expect england to give you assets with the threat of walking away from your debts??? seriously, walk away from your debts?? and then be expected to be taken seriously, I have heard salmond say he wants to become a financial center, like london, good luck with that once your a defaulter.

plan b's

1. yes you could, and england can screw you over anytime they want, in fact they would have more power over you then they do now, they don't have to play nice and fair anymore

2. except england hold a veto, see plan b point 1

3a/b probably your only realistic option
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  #225  
Old 27.08.2014, 17:30
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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also walk away from the debts that the UK has built up..
I said I was out but I have one question.

If Scotland walks away from the debt who in future will lend Scotland money?
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  #226  
Old 27.08.2014, 17:36
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

for me this is where it all falls over

the yes campaign and salmond are busy slagging off england for all they are worth

yet if they win they need to rely on all the good will in the world, and huge amounts of help and support from england.

see the flaw in the plan?
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  #227  
Old 27.08.2014, 18:00
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Good, finally a bit of sensible debate, thank you Duncan. So as far as I am aware from reading around the subject and watching the WHOLE debate (yes, that's for you Bigblue!):

Option 1 (preferred):
Keep GBP.
The premise here is twofold. If YES happens, and Salmond is given a mandate by the people of Scotland in 2016 (practically guaranteed if YES happens) then he would open discussions with the rUK administration as how best to financially separate Scotland from rUK whilst keeping the pound.

He (and most people I would think) thinks this is the fairest policy - of course the Bank of England nominally has all of the assets and printing facilities (although some Scottish institutions also have these) so he would try to negotiate a fair settlement whereby we form a currency union and Scotland receive a proportional amount of the BoE assets, as well as a proportional amount of the former UK's debts.

He is in a strong position here, one would think, as if rUK refuse to give him any concessions or assets, he could still use GBP, but also walk away from the debts that the UK has built up. Of course, that would leave us at the whims of the BoE in terms of interest rates.

In all likelihood this or something very similar to this would happen, as rUK would be cutting off their nose to spite their face by denying this.

Plan Bs:
1. If rUK deny Scotland any assets, we can continue to use GBP as our defacto currency for as long as we see fit (in the same way that if they wanted to USA or China could also do this) and in our own time transition to whatever we decided was the best option thereafter.

2. We could join the Euro. Despite all the naysaying on here, there is nothing concrete whatsoever to suggest we wouldn't be welcomed into the EU with open arms, just some countries 'monitoring' the situation and Spain getting slightly tetchy about the Basques/Catalans.

3a. We could set up an entirely new currency, create our own central bank and control "ScotPound" (obv made up, no idea what we'd call it yet) and no doubt accept both GBP and "Scotpound" in shops etc throughout Scotland, much as most places in CH accept CHF and EUR.

3b. Same as above, but peg "ScotPound" to GBP. Or EUR. OR whatever made sense.
The problem with all this, as I said earlier, is that the split between Edinburgh and Westminster is not amicable and if Salmond seriously wanted to continue using the GBP in any way and discuss debt assignment, do you not think this should have happened already? The truth is there is absolutely no substance behind the thinking. The cases and 'ideas' being put forward by Salmond are no better than the ones we could openly debate here, except we are not expecting to run a country in a short while.

If you follow the rational of continuing to use GBP for a while, and accepting partial debts, I assume that you would use the same model for say NHS, Defence and Intelligence, Public data records, immigration etc. But hold on a second, isn't that what already happens under the UK? This would equate to independence in all but name.....in other words Scotland will have achieved independence on paper and Salmond will look like a true Scottish hero for a while, until you all realise that you are still DEPENDENT on the UK and that it will cost the tax paying residents of Scotland more as they are now using UK services and currency whilst not being in the UK... This does not make sense, and it all hinges on whether the UK would be prepared to support Scotland following independence.....this is a further politically charged debate, which Salmond has no influence over........he will go down in history for creating an "Independent-Dependent Scotland".....in fact instead of releasing Scotland from the chains of hundreds of years of English rule, Scotland will become a slave to the whim of UK politics and finances, without a single voice in Westminster. MADNESS!

I would love to hear a real answer that explains how this will work, but no one can....
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  #228  
Old 27.08.2014, 18:03
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Sorry, at work horrifically slow so no quoting:

Connor: If Scotland walks away from the debt who in future will lend Scotland money?

Flippant answer, anyone, we would be totally solvent with no debts. It would no longer be our debt or problem, if rUK want to play silly beggers.

More realistic answer, and I would like the NO opinion on this:

Scotland is currently a part of the UK and as such has contributed to both its assets and debts. If we leave, why wouldn't we be expected to take both with us? Can you realistically expect an independent Scotland to assume the debts without giving us any assets or powers in return? That is surely greater fantasy than anything you accuse Salmond of.

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for me this is where it all falls over

the yes campaign and salmond are busy slagging off england for all they are worth

yet if they win they need to rely on all the good will in the world, and huge amounts of help and support from england.

see the flaw in the plan?
Flippant answer, everyone loves us and most harbour grudges against England.

More realistic answer:
The UK (from govt in England) has built up a lot of animosity from the rest of the EU, with their repeated threat of leaving and vetoes, it is basically at the point where I don't think anyone would be that bothered if they went, which is of course Cameron's / Tories' ideal scenario, they want out.

If Scotland separated, this could be a nice juncture for rUK to clear out (I'm sure that would have to go to referendum though) and an opportune moment to join.

As for goodwill from the rest of the world, I don't see what the big deal is. People will continue to by Whisky and come visit the Highlands, maybe even more so given the novelty of the new country and the newfound overseas patriotism being stirred.

How much goodwill do we actually need from England? We will be forced to cooperate (even if you think it would be through gritted teeth) as so much of our infrastructure is bound together. I don't see any reason really why being independent should affect anything between ENG and SCO in the medium term, after all the knee-jerk reaction stuff. Will you stop buying Whisky, will I stop supporting Arsenal? No, of course not.
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  #229  
Old 27.08.2014, 18:11
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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If you follow the rational of continuing to use GBP for a while, and accepting partial debts, I assume that you would use the same model for say NHS, Defence and Intelligence, Public data records, immigration etc. But hold on a second, isn't that what already happens under the UK?
I kind of see where you are coming from, but I think Salmond subtly outlined the issue with this during his debate.

Scotland's devloved parliament has operational control of the NHS, but of course not financial control. We receive our allowance from Westminster and must use it as best we see fit.

I cannot say what the situation would be with defence, short of the plan in place to make Faslane the centre of the Scottish Defence Force. We already have plenty of regiments and soldiers in the UK army, I don't know how easy of difficult it would be to split them back into a purely Scottish force - would all of them even want to? Tricky call.

As long as we have the nuclear weapons based in Faslane, I suggest the need for a defence force is fairly minimal though, which gives us 5.5 years (at the minimum, cheeky!) to sort something out.

Again, as I have said before, independence doesn't (have to) mean a total denial of the existance of the UK and England, I'm sure the UK already contributes criminal data to European databases, so no reason why some Scottish / English data system is unfeasible. As someone said already, our IT systems are already the same for many things.
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  #230  
Old 27.08.2014, 18:36
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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I kind of see where you are coming from, but I think Salmond subtly outlined the issue with this during his debate.

Scotland's devloved parliament has operational control of the NHS, but of course not financial control. We receive our allowance from Westminster and must use it as best we see fit.

I cannot say what the situation would be with defence, short of the plan in place to make Faslane the centre of the Scottish Defence Force. We already have plenty of regiments and soldiers in the UK army, I don't know how easy of difficult it would be to split them back into a purely Scottish force - would all of them even want to? Tricky call.

As long as we have the nuclear weapons based in Faslane, I suggest the need for a defence force is fairly minimal though, which gives us 5.5 years (at the minimum, cheeky!) to sort something out.

Again, as I have said before, independence doesn't (have to) mean a total denial of the existance of the UK and England, I'm sure the UK already contributes criminal data to European databases, so no reason why some Scottish / English data system is unfeasible. As someone said already, our IT systems are already the same for many things.

I am calling it quits for now so listen to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZCCD88l8kM

One small part of what sounds like Scottish military EXCEPT that this was an earlier amalgamation of 3 older regiments, one from Scotland, the others from England (one from Plymouth if I recall correctly)! There is no Scottish military per se and the soldiers who currently serve do so for Great Britain, and the Officers are bound under a Queen's Commission. To try and remove pieces of the British Army to create a Scottish Defence Force, would actually create enormous problems for both Scotland and UK. The reality is that each individual would need to 'volunteer' for the new role and stationing, and this concept is not a realistic one given the diversity of roles/specialists needed. There are only 2 regiments left in the British Army that predominantly (not exclusively) recruit from Scotland, one Infantry Regiment and one Cavalry Regiment....hardly a defence capability, even with their fighting prowess. Also, what will the Scottish regiments do about the Fijians who have swelled their ranks during times of poor recruitment?
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  #231  
Old 27.08.2014, 20:00
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

A better slogan for Scottish independence..

Say "Aye" for Independence in Scotland (say with Scottish accent)
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  #232  
Old 27.08.2014, 21:36
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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To try and remove pieces of the British Army to create a Scottish Defence Force, would actually create enormous problems for both Scotland and UK. The reality is that each individual would need to 'volunteer' for the new role and stationing, and this concept is not a realistic one given the diversity of roles/specialists needed.
Yes but this has all happened before and there is no reason why it should not happen again. Go to Windsor Castle and you'll find the colours of the Connaught Rangers, the Royal Munster Fusiliers, the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, the Princes of Wales’s Leinster Regiment and the Royal Irish Regiment all disbanded in 1922 and the soldier involved either joint the new Irish army or transferred to other British regiments.
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  #233  
Old 27.08.2014, 22:07
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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I would love to hear a real answer that explains how this will work, but no one can....
Well go look at the only precedence you have - The Anglo-Irish treaty of 1921. And see how Lloyd George, Churchill, Collins Griffith et al reached agreement on the same issues:

- The national territory
- Share of the national debt
- The military
- The public service
- Payment of public pensions
- Transfer of the national archives
- Recognition of jail sentences handed down before the formation of the new Irish state
- Foreign recognition and representation
- The place of the Sovereign
- The currency union

and the list goes on. This has all happened before!

If Scotland does decide to go it's own way, then deals will have to be made and no one holds all the cards. Even the currency union has happened before and the Bank of England and the Bank of Ireland were able to manage it for several decades until Ireland decided to go it's own way.
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  #234  
Old 27.08.2014, 23:12
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Even the currency union has happened before and the Bank of England and the Bank of Ireland were able to manage it for several decades until Ireland decided to go it's own way.
Were investment banks and high frequency trading around then?
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  #235  
Old 27.08.2014, 23:19
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Were investment banks and high frequency trading around then?
And exactly how is that relevant? And I really mean in detail how its existence impacts a currency union as opposed to the current situation. Not some vague hairy fairy stuff???
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  #236  
Old 28.08.2014, 07:15
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Amazing may be to see Scotland joining OPEC
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  #237  
Old 28.08.2014, 11:15
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Yes but this has all happened before and there is no reason why it should not happen again. Go to Windsor Castle and you'll find the colours of the Connaught Rangers, the Royal Munster Fusiliers, the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, the Princes of Wales’s Leinster Regiment and the Royal Irish Regiment all disbanded in 1922 and the soldier involved either joint the new Irish army or transferred to other British regiments.

I have attended Windsor Castle many times in my past; This is not the same thing at all; the Royal Irish Regiment still exists as part of the British Army and the other regiments you mentioned were simply disbanded - not absorbed into the Irish Army that already existed. Given Irelands fractured history with the Armed Forces -its own and Britain's - you should check your facts. The history of the Irish Army can be traced to The Volunteers of the IRA in 1913 and during the post civil war 'Emergency' some 5,000 Irish soldiers deserted to join the British Army - only receiving a pardon last year.

The Scottish Defence Force would not be in the British Army! All officers who wanted to move would have to resign their Queen's Commission and be presented with some other kind of allegiance, to Salmond I presume.... What would happen to the UK index linked military pensions? You would have to reduce pay scales, as a Scottish Defence Force would not be able to justify the 'X-Factor' included in pay provided to British Soldiers due to deployments etc. How would Scotland treat the Fijians who can legally serve with the British Army because of the Common Wealth membership.....Fiji is not a member of the Scotland! How would you establish a command structure? Where would the equipment come from, and more to the point what would the equipment need to be, given that it is a Defence Force, unlike anything seen in the UK before. What would the defence policy be? Pre-emptive strike/matters abroad/membership of NATO/UN..... And what about a navy....surely Scotland will need a navy to patrol its coast lines, newly acquired oil fields and fishing waters!

The more questions the YES vote try to answer the more questions fall out that simply cant be answered, because nobody has addressed them. This is the gamble, this is why Salmond is wrong and he should have slowed the process down to get this right.....there is only one shot at this in our lifetimes and probably much longer and Scotland is far too valuable to gamble in this cavalier manner.
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Old 28.08.2014, 14:06
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Some big names supporting Scotlands Independence: Interesting the threat of exit from the common market if a No although I doubt Cameron would ever take us out out Europe too much too loose.

More than 200 business figures have signed an open letter backing Scottish independence.
Stagecoach chairman Sir Brian Souter and Clyde Blowers boss Jim McColl are among signatories who say independence is in Scotland's economic interest.
It comes a day after a similar letter from 130 pro-UK business leaders said the case for independence had not been made.
The pro-independence letter has been published in The Herald newspaper.
Other signatories include Ralph Topping, retired chief executive of William Hill, Professor Nathu Puri, founder of Purico, former Scottish Enterprise chairman Sir Donald Mackay and former RBS chairman Sir George Mathewson.
The letter states: "An independent Scotland will recognise entrepreneurs small and large as the real wealth and job creators of the nation's economic future.
"It will encourage a culture in which innovation, endeavour and enterprise are nurtured. It will place power in the hands of Scotland's people to channel the huge resources of our country in the interests of those who live and work here."
The letter goes on to argue that the real threat to Scotland is the "real possibility of a British exit from the European common market".
The letter was a response to a letter which appeared in the Scotsman newspaper on Wednesday, signed by more than 130 business figures who argued the case for independence had not been made.
The pro-Union signatories, who included the head of engineering firm Weir Group, warned of "substantial risks" if there is a "Yes" vote in the referendum.
Scotland will go to the polls in the referendum on 18 September, with voters being asked the "Yes/No" question: "Should Scotland be an independent country?"
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Old 28.08.2014, 14:31
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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I have attended Windsor Castle many times in my past; This is not the same thing at all; the Royal Irish Regiment still exists as part of the British Army and the other regiments you mentioned were simply disbanded - not absorbed into the Irish Army that already existed. Given Irelands fractured history with the Armed Forces -its own and Britain's - you should check your facts. The history of the Irish Army can be traced to The Volunteers of the IRA in 1913 and during the post civil war 'Emergency' some 5,000 Irish soldiers deserted to join the British Army - only receiving a pardon last year.

The Scottish Defence Force would not be in the British Army! All officers who wanted to move would have to resign their Queen's Commission and be presented with some other kind of allegiance, to Salmond I presume.... What would happen to the UK index linked military pensions? You would have to reduce pay scales, as a Scottish Defence Force would not be able to justify the 'X-Factor' included in pay provided to British Soldiers due to deployments etc. How would Scotland treat the Fijians who can legally serve with the British Army because of the Common Wealth membership.....Fiji is not a member of the Scotland! How would you establish a command structure? Where would the equipment come from, and more to the point what would the equipment need to be, given that it is a Defence Force, unlike anything seen in the UK before. What would the defence policy be? Pre-emptive strike/matters abroad/membership of NATO/UN..... And what about a navy....surely Scotland will need a navy to patrol its coast lines, newly acquired oil fields and fishing waters!

The more questions the YES vote try to answer the more questions fall out that simply cant be answered, because nobody has addressed them. This is the gamble, this is why Salmond is wrong and he should have slowed the process down to get this right.....there is only one shot at this in our lifetimes and probably much longer and Scotland is far too valuable to gamble in this cavalier manner.
You need to stop this, admin will be inundated with requests to change their votes in the poll.

Seriously your post are fantastic, even as a no voter I'm learning so much from your posts.
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Old 28.08.2014, 14:46
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

The plan after YES is actually to keep the Queen, so nobody has to resign their Queen's commission.

Problem solved. Next.
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