Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
View Poll Results: Would you favour Scotland opting for indepence from UK
YES........ go for it 31 50.00%
NO.......... hang on for dear life 31 50.00%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #381  
Old 10.09.2014, 12:49
bigblue2's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glarus
Posts: 6,143
Groaned at 309 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 9,483 Times in 3,859 Posts
bigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Quote:
View Post
my 5 Rp worth, * WARNING minor rant alert*

I find the whole thing depressing not because I support No but because of the incompetence and deceit of both sides leaders. The Better Together Leaders took it for granted that it would be an easy No and couldn't be bothered to engage an electorate keen for change and willing to discuss how their country should be run. Ironically the Yes vote has energized voters in the same way as UKIP has in England. As for Salmond and his gang, I can't make up my kind if they're incompetent, liars or both.

However, I am very positive about the democracy discussions I like the fact that Scots have an interest in how their country should be run.

I think an Indy Scotland will definitely succeed in the long term (although I fear medium term pain) but I hope She stays in the UK

* EXHALES *

To be fair the NO group where never given anything to debate / argue, vote yes because I say so doesn't give you much to go on, and when the NO group point out there is no currency, security etc etc the Yes group just shout them down with no answer at all "it'll all be fine" isn't an answer, it dreaming.

And of course a split would help the tories no end.

Interesting 'fact' in the dailywail this morning, saying the UK support scotland to the tune of 17 billion per year, if that's really the case then it won't take long at all till they are banging on the door begging to be let back in.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank bigblue2 for this useful post:
  #382  
Old 10.09.2014, 12:55
lewton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Berlin, Deutschland
Posts: 608
Groaned at 16 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 507 Times in 292 Posts
lewton has earned some respectlewton has earned some respect
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Quote:
View Post
Strictly speaking, should the Scotch vote to go their own way, the United Kingdom should be renamed the "United Kingdom of England and Northern Ireland". The prinipality of Wales was incorporated into the Kingdom of England in 1536; Scotland and England subsequently united in 1707 to form the Kingdom of Great Britain; Ireland joined in 1801 to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, which became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland after Irish independence in 1922.
If this is so then I stand corrected.


Quote:
View Post
And a quick FYI; the "Great" in Great Britain simply refers to the largest island of the British Isles archipelago, comprising England, Wales and Scotland, and nothing to do with delusions of grandeur on the part of the Brits.
I did not imply such a thing, did I?
Reply With Quote
  #383  
Old 10.09.2014, 12:57
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: ZH
Posts: 4,438
Groaned at 55 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 2,163 Times in 1,310 Posts
SOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Quote:
View Post

And of course a split would help the tories no end.

n.
DC would not agree, hence the reason he's made a last chance saloon dash up north.
Reply With Quote
  #384  
Old 10.09.2014, 12:57
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,401
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,594 Times in 6,209 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Quote:
View Post
I understand they would, but both these countries were conquered by England.
The term "United Kingdom" was coined after the kingdoms of England and Scotland decided to unite into one. The Kingdom of England already included Ireland (the whole island) and Wales.
I'm not sure you don't have it the wrong way round.

Much of Ireland may have been de-facto held by the English (and before them the Normans) since the Norman kings. But the legal annexation of Ireland did not occur until after the Act of Union. The Kingdom of Ireland thus joined the Union, becoming the third member of that union besides England and Scotland.

When the Irish Free State became independent, the counties that now constitute Northern Ireland very briefly became part of the Irish Free State, but were through the agreement that Ireland had reached with Westminster, able to opt out and re-join the United Kingdom, which they immediately did. However, although (I think) Ireland was initially part of the Commonwealth, it ceased to be a monarchy with independence. I am thus not sure whether or not Northern Ireland is thus still legally a kingdom in the same way Scotland is.

Wales, for the purposes orf the Acts of Union, was always considered part of England and was never a signatory of the act in its own name. If Wales were to seek independence, it would not be through repeal of the Act of Union but through repeal of far older legislation.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #385  
Old 10.09.2014, 13:02
bigblue2's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glarus
Posts: 6,143
Groaned at 309 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 9,483 Times in 3,859 Posts
bigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Quote:
View Post
DC would not agree, hence the reason he's made a last chance saloon dash up north.
window dressing, he's done nothing upto now and is just going through the motions
Reply With Quote
  #386  
Old 10.09.2014, 13:02
StirB's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,861
Groaned at 45 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 2,214 Times in 932 Posts
StirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Quote:
View Post
DC would not agree, hence the reason he's made a last chance saloon dash up north.
Or perhaps he does agree, hence his cunning vote losing strategy of actually visiting Scotland.

Sly chubby fox that he is.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank StirB for this useful post:
  #387  
Old 10.09.2014, 13:04
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: ZH
Posts: 4,438
Groaned at 55 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 2,163 Times in 1,310 Posts
SOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Quote:
View Post
window dressing, he's done nothing upto now and is just going through the motions
Exactly, panic stricken
Reply With Quote
  #388  
Old 10.09.2014, 13:10
lucy_who's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 642
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 1,002 Times in 384 Posts
lucy_who has a reputation beyond reputelucy_who has a reputation beyond reputelucy_who has a reputation beyond reputelucy_who has a reputation beyond reputelucy_who has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Point of order: pies, whisky, and eggs can be "Scotch". People, however, are "Scots".
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank lucy_who for this useful post:
  #389  
Old 10.09.2014, 13:11
MidfieldGeneral's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,415
Groaned at 54 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 2,572 Times in 1,083 Posts
MidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Quote:
View Post
To be fair the NO group where never given anything to debate / argue, vote yes because I say so doesn't give you much to go on, and when the NO group point out there is no currency, security etc etc the Yes group just shout them down with no answer at all "it'll all be fine" isn't an answer, it dreaming.

And of course a split would help the tories no end.

Interesting 'fact' in the dailywail this morning, saying the UK support scotland to the tune of 17 billion per year, if that's really the case then it won't take long at all till they are banging on the door begging to be let back in.
imho the NO leadership are complacent and take the Scots for granted.
Reply With Quote
  #390  
Old 10.09.2014, 13:22
ratbag's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Zürich
Posts: 466
Groaned at 21 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 374 Times in 203 Posts
ratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeable
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Quote:
View Post
window dressing, he's done nothing upto now and is just going through the motions
Yeuk.

But, suitable employment for such a slimy windbag
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ratbag for this useful post:
  #391  
Old 10.09.2014, 13:41
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 8,289
Groaned at 107 Times in 91 Posts
Thanked 14,201 Times in 5,021 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Quote:
View Post
Point of order: pies, whisky, and eggs can be "Scotch". People, however, are "Scots".
I prefer Scotch; winds 'em up summat rotten, so it does
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank PaddyG for this useful post:
  #392  
Old 10.09.2014, 13:44
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 8,289
Groaned at 107 Times in 91 Posts
Thanked 14,201 Times in 5,021 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Quote:
View Post
I did not imply such a thing, did I?
Indeed, you did not, which is why it was a general FYI; many peple go under the misaprehension that the "Great" in Great Britain was coined by the Brits as an estimation of the greatness of the empire/kingdom whatever. But it is simply the name of the biggest island.
Reply With Quote
  #393  
Old 10.09.2014, 13:57
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,649
Groaned at 152 Times in 118 Posts
Thanked 9,559 Times in 3,216 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Quote:
View Post
Indeed, you did not, which is why it was a general FYI; many peple go under the misaprehension that the "Great" in Great Britain was coined by the Brits as an estimation of the greatness of the empire/kingdom whatever. But it is simply the name of the biggest island.
so the country will be called "Half of Great Britain" after the voting?

instead of United Kingdom, it could be simply Kingdom
Reply With Quote
  #394  
Old 10.09.2014, 14:18
lucy_who's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 642
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 1,002 Times in 384 Posts
lucy_who has a reputation beyond reputelucy_who has a reputation beyond reputelucy_who has a reputation beyond reputelucy_who has a reputation beyond reputelucy_who has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

The United Kingdom, Principality, and Province of Lower Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

They'll have to extend the running time for Eurovision, though.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank lucy_who for this useful post:
  #395  
Old 10.09.2014, 14:32
Castro's Avatar
à la mod
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Basel-Land of Smiles
Posts: 4,769
Groaned at 91 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 12,711 Times in 4,143 Posts
Castro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Interesting article in the Gruniard by Monbiot

A yes vote in Scotland would unleash the most dangerous thing of all - hope
Independence would carry the potential to galvanise progressive movements across the rest of the UK

George Monbiot
The Guardian, Tuesday 9 September 2014 18.58 BST


"It’s no surprise that the more the Scots see of their former Labour ministers, the more inclined they are to vote for independence." Photograph: Mike Finn-Kelcey/Reuters

Of all the bad arguments urging the Scots to vote no – and there are plenty – perhaps the worst is the demand that Scotland should remain in the union to save England from itself. Responses to my column last week suggest this wretched apron-strings argument has some traction among people who claim to belong to the left.

Consider what it entails: it asks a nation of 5.3 million to forgo independence to exempt a nation of 54 million from having to fight its own battles. In return for this self-denial, the five million must remain yoked to the dismal politics of cowardice and triangulation that cause the problems from which we ask them to save us.

“A UK without Scotland would be much less likely to elect any government of a progressive hue,” former Labour minister Brian Wilson claimed in the Guardian last week. We must combine against the “forces of privilege and reaction” (as he lines up with the Conservatives, Ukip, the Lib Dems, the banks, the corporations, almost all the rightwing columnists in Britain, and every UK newspaper except the Sunday Herald) – in the cause of “solidarity”.

There’s another New Labour weasel word to add to its lexicon (other examples include reform, which now means privatisation; and partnership, which means selling out to big business). Once solidarity meant making common cause with the exploited, the underpaid, the excluded. Now, to these cyborgs in suits, it means keeping faith with the banks, the corporate press, cuts, a tollbooth economy and market fundamentalism.

Here, to Wilson and his fellow flinchers, is what solidarity meant while they were in office. It meant voting for the Iraq war, for Trident, for identity cards, for 3,500 new criminal offences, including the criminalisation of most forms of peaceful protest. It meant being drafted in as political mercenaries to impose on the English policies to which the Scots were not subject, such as university top-up fees and foundation hospitals. It meant supporting every destructive and unjust proposition advanced by their leaders: the brood parasites who hatched in the Labour nest then flicked its dearest principles over the edge. It’s no surprise that the more the Scots see of their former Labour ministers, the more inclined they are to vote for independence.

So now Better Together has brought in Gordon Brown, scattering bribes in a desperate, last-ditch effort at containment. They must hope the Scots have forgotten that he boasted of setting “the lowest rate in the history of British corporation tax, the lowest rate of any major country in Europe and the lowest rate of any major industrialised country anywhere”. That he pledged to the City of London “in budget after budget, I want us to do even more to encourage the risk takers”. That, after 13 years of Labour government, the UK had higher levels of inequality than after 18 years of Tory government. That his government colluded in kidnapping and torture. That he helped cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands through his support for the illegal war on Iraq.

He roams through Scotland, still badged with blood, promising what he never delivered when he had the chance, this man who helped unravel the social safety net his predecessors wove; who marketised and dismembered public services; who enriched the wealthy and shafted the poor; who pledged money for Trident but failed to reverse the loss of social housing; whose private finance initiative planted a series of timebombs now exploding throughout the NHS and other public services; who greased and wheedled and slavered his way into the company of bankers and oligarchs while trampling over the working people he was elected to represent. This is the progressive Prester John who will ride to the rescue of the no campaign?

Where, in Scotland’s Labour party, are the Keir Hardies and Jimmy Reids of our time? Where is the vision, the inspiration, the hope? The shuffling, spineless little men who replaced these titans offer nothing but fear. Through fear, they seek to shove Scotland back into its box, as its people rebel against the dreary, closed future mapped out for them – and the rest of us – by the three main Westminster parties.

Sure, if Scotland becomes independent, all else being equal, Labour would lose 41 seats at Westminster and Tory majorities would become more likely. But all else need not be equal. Scottish independence can galvanise progressive movements across the rest of the UK. We’ll watch as the Scots engage in the transformative process of writing a constitution. We’ll see that a nation of these islands can live and – I hope – flourish with a fully elected legislature (no House of Lords), with a fair electoral system (proportional representation), and with a parliament in which only representatives of that nation can vote (no cross-border mercenaries).

Already, the myth of political apathy has been scotched by the tumultuous movement north of the border. As soon as something is worth voting for, people will queue into the night to add their names to the register. The low voter turnouts in Westminster elections reflect not an absence of interest but an absence of hope.

If Scotland becomes independent, it will be despite the efforts of almost the entire UK establishment. It will be because social media has defeated the corporate media. It will be a victory for citizens over the Westminster machine, for shoes over helicopters. It will show that a sufficiently inspiring idea can cut through bribes and blackmail, through threats and fear-mongering. That hope, marginalised at first, can spread across a nation, defying all attempts to suppress it. That you can be hated by the Daily Mail and still have a chance of winning.

If Labour has any political nous, any remaining flicker of courage, it will understand what this moment means. Instead of suppressing the forces of hope and inspiration, it would mobilise them. It would, for instance, pledge, in its manifesto, a referendum on drafting a written constitution for the rest of the UK.

It would understand that hope is the most dangerous of all political reagents. It can transform what appears to be a fixed polity, a fixed outcome, into something entirely different. It can summon up passion and purpose we never knew we possessed. If Scotland becomes independent, England – if only the potential were recognised – could also be transformed.

Source
Reply With Quote
  #396  
Old 10.09.2014, 16:27
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,401
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,594 Times in 6,209 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Quote:
View Post
Point of order: pies, whisky, and eggs can be "Scotch". People, however, are "Scots".
and if you're in France, sticky tape.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #397  
Old 10.09.2014, 16:28
basher's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 959
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 1,463 Times in 514 Posts
basher has a reputation beyond reputebasher has a reputation beyond reputebasher has a reputation beyond reputebasher has a reputation beyond reputebasher has a reputation beyond reputebasher has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Given that there are a lot of interesting for and against arguments coming out in the final phase before the Referendum, it would have been interesting to see how EF members would vote - knowing what we do now - so it`s a shame that the poll at the head of this thread - is closed!
Reply With Quote
  #398  
Old 10.09.2014, 16:33
baboon's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 2,464
Groaned at 73 Times in 64 Posts
Thanked 2,933 Times in 1,464 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Quote:
View Post
Given that there are a lot of interesting for and against arguments coming out in the final phase before the Referendum, it would have been interesting to see how EF members would vote - knowing what we do now - so it`s a shame that the poll at the head of this thread - is closed!
Well start another one . I would still vote "don't know" FWIW.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank baboon for this useful post:
  #399  
Old 10.09.2014, 19:09
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 2,086
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,065 Times in 1,054 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Quote:
View Post
When the Irish Free State became independent, the counties that now constitute Northern Ireland very briefly became part of the Irish Free State, but were through the agreement that Ireland had reached with Westminster, able to opt out and re-join the United Kingdom, which they immediately did. However, although (I think) Ireland was initially part of the Commonwealth, it ceased to be a monarchy with independence. I am thus not sure whether or not Northern Ireland is thus still legally a kingdom in the same way
Actually Ireland remained in the Commonwealth until 1949 and from 1931 Ireland had its own monarchy in personal union with Britain... Although for the most part the Irish government simply choose to ignore both. In fact when it came to Edward VIII's abdication they did not get around to passing their consent until two after the UK. Thus for two days he remained King of Ireland, but not the UK nor the dominions!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #400  
Old 10.09.2014, 21:04
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 19,355
Groaned at 368 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 22,366 Times in 10,062 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Quote:
View Post
and if you're in France, sticky tape.
In Romandie too One Christmas when my parents were visiting us in UK, my dad asked OH for 'du Scotch' at about 9am on Christmas morning. My dad was not a bit drinker, so OH was a tad surprised, but presented him with his best Lagavulin malt- and dad refused, saying he couldn't possibly start drinking at that time in the morning. Surprise all round- dad of course wanted cellotape to wrap the kids presents.

Must say I am amazed at the 50/50 result on EF...
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Scottish Independence.... ross. International affairs/politics 86 04.05.2013 10:22
A Scottish Cultural Evening and Scottish Whisky Tasting in Basel Dec 4th Suzele Commercial events 7 30.10.2009 21:34
Voting for Australians NicM International affairs/politics 6 29.05.2007 15:32


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:12.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0