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View Poll Results: Would you favour Scotland opting for indepence from UK
YES........ go for it 31 50.00%
NO.......... hang on for dear life 31 50.00%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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  #141  
Old 26.08.2014, 13:45
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Also looks like we're winning the debate here too, with the current standings at 56% Yes to 44% No which, incidentally, is my prediction for the actual vote on the 18th.

Vive l'Ecosse!
I thought the latest opinion poll was almost exactly the other way round; 57 - 43?
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  #142  
Old 26.08.2014, 13:57
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

I agree, the debate was terrible, I think the moderator was weak. Darling was very annoyed at the constant interruptions by Salmond. Salmond behaved as if in a pub arguing over a football match.

Darling pointed out that he was Scottish, and an ex Labour finance minister, why Salmond tried to associate him with the Conservatives is a mystery.
Darling pointed out that an expert oil manager has recently queried the oil figures, the economical oil reserves are not as large as stated.
Darling asked Salmond what will Scotland do when the oil supply fails, as it did last year, as much as the education budget, what reserves did he have?
Darling pointed out that experts had stated that moving the nuclear base south will take 14 years, Salmond said it will take 5
½ years.
Darling asked Salmond several times for his plan 'B,' needed if the UK refused a monetary union. Salmond claimed he had 3 Plan 'B's, which all relied on using the pound sterling.

Salmond continually appealed to the people to give him the mandate, and he will make everything work.
Salmond accused Darling of putting 100,000 children at risk of poverty, Darling emphasised he is a Scottish Labour politician, not a Tory.
Salmond accused Darling of cutting finances to the Scottish health service, again Darling said he was not a Tory.

In my view Darling easily won the debate: he produced facts which Salmond could not disagree with. Salmon blustered like a bully in a pub. If you consider their debating styles, Darling is the thoughtful intellectual, Salmond is the street fighter.

I agree that Salmond has an impressive record as a leader in Scotland, he probably has expert staff too. I believe that most of his success is a result of the Labour Party's failure to lead Scotland in their last government (Blair and Brown are Scottish, but they did very little for Scotland). The people love his pugilistic style, but will his ideas be sufficient to create an independent Scotland? If everything goes as per plan 'A' probably yes, but he has no solutions for unexpected oil losses. No ideas were given on new jobs creation, and no ideas produced on wealth creation. He seems to think he will have enough income to give old people a good life, and young people a good education. Can you really trust a man like that?

Good luck Scotland, I love you, but I fear for your future.

Still, you can always blame the English if everything goes bad!

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  #143  
Old 26.08.2014, 14:04
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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I agree, the debate was terrible, I think the moderator was weak. Darling was very annoyed at the constant interruptions by Salmond. Salmond behaved as if in a pub arguing over a football match.

Darling pointed out that he was Scottish, and an ex Labour finance minister, why Salmond tried to associate him with the Conservatives is a mystery.
Darling pointed out that an expert oil manager has recently queried the oil figures, the economical oil reserves are not as large as stated.
Darling asked Salmond what will Scotland do when the oil supply fails, as it did last year, as much as the education budget, what reserves did he have?
Darling pointed out that experts had stated that moving the nuclear base south will take 14 years, Salmond said it will take 5
½ years.
Darling asked Salmond several times for his plan 'B,' needed if the UK refused a monetary union. Salmond claimed he had 3 Plan 'B's, which all relied on using the pound sterling.

Salmond continually appealed to the people to give him the mandate, and he will make everything work.
Salmond accused Darling of putting 100,000 children at risk of poverty, Darling emphasised he is a Scottish Labour politician, not a Tory. Salmond accused Darling of cutting finances to the Scottish health service, again Darling said he was not a Tory.

In my view Darling easily won the debate: he produced facts which Salmond could not disagree with. Salmon blustered like a bully in a pub. If you consider their debating styles, Darling is the thoughtful intellectual, Salmond is the street fighter.

I agree that Salmond has an impressive record as a leader in Scotland, he probably has expert staff too. I believe that most of his success is a result of the Labour Party's failure to lead Scotland in their last government. The people love his pugilistic style, but will his ideas be sufficient to create an independent Scotland? If everything goes as per plan 'A' probably yes, but he has no solutions for unexpected oil losses. No ideas were given on new jobs creation, and no ideas produced on wealth creation. He seems to think he will have enough income to give old people a good life, and young people a good education. Can you really trust a man like that?

Good luck Scotland, I love you, but I fear for your future.

Still, you can always blame the English if everything goes bad!

Far too many rights in this post it must be wrong.

And blaming the English is exactly what will happen.
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  #144  
Old 26.08.2014, 14:36
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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I thought the latest opinion poll was almost exactly the other way round; 57 - 43?
OK, so all we need is an ambiguous and misleading way of stating the question on the ballot.
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  #145  
Old 26.08.2014, 14:43
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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I didn't watch the debate last night, but something occurred to me; since the UK has one of the fastest growing economies at the moment (or so I read), why not use that as an argument; why would you not want to be a part of it? But then Mr. Darling would have to admit the Tory government is doing a not-too-bad job with the economy .
But you could turn that around and ask, seeing the UK economy is growing so well, why is so little of that growth in Scotland? Either he would have to admit that it isn't and thus underline the Londoncentric nature of UK economic growth, or he would have to dispuite that disparity and thus admit Scotland is also growing.
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  #146  
Old 26.08.2014, 14:59
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

The Scottish finance industry is large, they will also be benefiting.

But Scotland has an aging population (The younger ones are all in London or here on EF) and many are from the traditional metal bashing industries, which other countries can produce at a much lower price.

Salmond mentioned the Scottish ship building industry is in a bad state, and he has been busy saving the ship yard. In the same breath he mentioned that Norway has a successful ship building industry. How is that possible, when Norway has a very high cost of living? Maybe their government subsidizes them, it's possible as Norway is not in the EU.
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  #147  
Old 26.08.2014, 15:13
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Salmond did well because Tory bashing is popular with the Scottish public and is like shooting fish in a barrel. However, an indy Scotland won't be built on Tory bashing.
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  #148  
Old 26.08.2014, 15:19
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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The Scottish finance industry is large, they will also be benefiting.

But Scotland has an aging population (The younger ones are all in London or here on EF) and many are from the traditional metal bashing industries, which other countries can produce at a much lower price.

Salmond mentioned the Scottish ship building industry is in a bad state, and he has been busy saving the ship yard. In the same breath he mentioned that Norway has a successful ship building industry. How is that possible, when Norway has a very high cost of living? Maybe their government subsidizes them, it's possible as Norway is not in the EU.
Most shipbuilding these days is in east Asia. England doesn't have any left at all as far as I know. There's some residual shipbuilding in France and Germany but that's mostly subsidies. I understand that Norway has some niche shipbuilding. I'm not sure how heavily that's subsidized but it could be its able to survive due to its niche nature. Norway produces a lot of special purpose craft such as cable layers, pipeline layers, crane boats for repairing underwater cables and pipelines, firefighting boats and other highly specialised craft that require specialized engineering skills and experience and thus justify high prices. A lot of this grew out of that fact that they initially supplied the domestic oil industry (which did the enginering work in-house at first) and then later spun that off into an independent industry that expaned into export markets. In other words, Norway is benfeitting from decades of history and experience. It's not the sort of market you can easily catch up with.
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  #149  
Old 26.08.2014, 15:20
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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I agree, the debate was terrible, I think the moderator was weak. Darling was very annoyed at the constant interruptions by Salmond. Salmond behaved as if in a pub arguing over a football match.
Your preferred option lost, and lost badly, this is just sour grapes.

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Darling pointed out that he was Scottish, and an ex Labour finance minister, why Salmond tried to associate him with the Conservatives is a mystery.

Because he's aligned with the tories in Bitter Together, hardly a mystery. He's the titular head of an organisation which includes the Orange Order, the BNP, EDL, UKIP, Britain First and a few other quasi-fascist, ACTUAL nationalist groups, I think linking him to the tories only was a kindness he didn't deserve.

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Darling pointed out that an expert oil manager has recently queried the oil figures, the economical oil reserves are not as large as stated.
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Darling asked Salmond what will Scotland do when the oil supply fails, as it did last year, as much as the education budget, what reserves did he have?

Salmond was an oil economist, Darling was the chancellor who burst Britain and the figurehead of the worst, lying, scaremongering polotical campaign in years; Salmond has many of his own oil economists who'll produce stats to prove Darling's chosen man wrong, stats are stas but I know who's more trustworthy there.

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Darling pointed out that experts had stated that moving the nuclear base south will take 14 years, Salmond said it will take 5
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½ years.

Salmond said it would take 5.5 years to get the Trident ready to move, Coulport, the rest of the UK's preferred option to keep them, won't be ready for 14 years, but that's hardly an independent Scotlan'd problem. They're US owned and maintained weapons anyway, they could be sent back to the US in the meantime, or sent to nuclear France for safekeeping if the rUK isn't up to the job of maintaining them - really punching above your weight there eh? Better Together for who?

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Darling asked Salmond several times for his plan 'B,' needed if the UK refused a monetary union. Salmond claimed he had 3 Plan 'B's, which all relied on using the pound sterling.


No they didn't. You probably couldn't hear this because your great and reasonable hero Darling was shouting over the answer in his "winning" performance, but none of them rely on the UK. Please go and read what he said, rather than listening to more propaganda

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In my view Darling easily won the debate: he produced facts which Salmond could not disagree with. Salmon blustered like a bully in a pub. If you consider their debating styles, Darling is the thoughtful intellectual, Salmond is the street fighter.

And this shows your insane bias, Darling lost miserably, he failed in his attempt to further scaremonger, and when Salmond answered him on the currency, he had no plan B himself and didn't know where to go from there. He spent most of the first hour stuttering, repeating himself, flushed and angry, even at one point veering into the vernacular and asking Salmond to "Haud oan a minute" as if he was about to ask him outside.


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Still, you can always blame the English if everything goes bad!
And again with this tired old argument, it's people like me who are voting yes to take responsibility for our own mess, and the shortbread tin waving, kilt wearing, "send them homewards tae think again" mob like Connor MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod who are voting no so they can still blame the English for their ills while hiding behind them to "punch above our weight".
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  #150  
Old 26.08.2014, 15:34
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Because he's aligned with the tories in Bitter Together, hardly a mystery. He's the titular head of an organisation which includes the Orange Order, the BNP, EDL, UKIP, Britain First and a few other quasi-fascist, ACTUAL nationalist groups, I think linking him to the tories only was a kindness he didn't deserve.
I think you fail to realise that the Better Together campaign includes almost the entire political spectrum from socialist through LibDem to Tory to quasi-nationalist (I don't think the BNP, EDL etc are actually official, welcome members to the campaign). Trying to make it out to be a right-wing nationalist campaign is disingenuous at best.
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  #151  
Old 26.08.2014, 15:35
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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The Scottish finance industry is large, they will also be benefiting.

But Scotland has an aging population (The younger ones are all in London or here on EF) and many are from the traditional metal bashing industries, which other countries can produce at a much lower price.

Salmond mentioned the Scottish ship building industry is in a bad state, and he has been busy saving the ship yard. In the same breath he mentioned that Norway has a successful ship building industry. How is that possible, when Norway has a very high cost of living? Maybe their government subsidizes them, it's possible as Norway is not in the EU.
Have you even been to Scotland since 1990? What bullshit is this? The younger ones are all in London are they? This is interesting news to me, and presumably to the millions of young people living and working in Scotland. And even they somehow work in the "traditional metal bashing industries"? Or our old people once worked in these same industries? What point are you making there and how is it relevant?

Scotland hasn't had much "traditional metal bashing industr[y]" for about 25 years, what we do have, to quote Tom Devine, is "a diversified economy in which heavy industry, light manufacturing, the electronics sector, tourism, financial services have come together. And the vibrant public sector is important in terms of employment. We now have a resilient economic system."
In fact let me complete the quote there to hammer home the point:
"We also have considerable reserves of one of the most important things for an independent state and that is power; power through the assets of oil and also through the potential of wind energy. Scotland is disproportionately endowed with these, compared to almost all other European countries. So, in other words, because of this economic transformation, which has undoubtedly led to social dislocation for many communities – and let’s not forget that – we now have an economy that can sustain itself in a resilient way in world markets."

This is Scotland's most respected historian, who admitted himself he's only come round to the idea of independence in the last few weeks, I'd say he's probably more aware of the current state of Scotland than you.

You challenged me yesterday to do my research before I accuse others of lying, then when I used your own quotes to prove you were lying, and ask you for evidence to the contrary you ignored it, so here's some advice for you, please do a little bit of research yourself before making outrageous claims and you might not look like so much of a fool.
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  #152  
Old 26.08.2014, 15:40
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

I was talking to a Scottish small renewable energy business owner a few months back at a party. He is scared shitless about a Yes vote; he doesn't trust Salmond as far as he could throw him and said he would seriously consider moving his business south of the border should a Yes vote prevail. I'm sure he doesn't represent all small business owners, but he probably has a better idea of the situation than any of us sat here on our cosy Swiss backsides.
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  #153  
Old 26.08.2014, 15:42
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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I think you fail to realise that the Better Together campaign includes almost the entire political spectrum from socialist through LibDem to Tory to quasi-nationalist (I don't think the BNP, EDL etc are actually official, welcome members to the campaign). Trying to make it out to be a right-wing nationalist campaign is disingenuous at best.
But it is a Nationalist campaign, far more so than the supposedly nationalist campaign in Scotland, which is concentrated on making sure the people who actually live in Scotland, regardless of where they come from, have full control of what happens in Scotland, rather than the actual British Nationalist campaign of us being Better Together which is soaked in history and nonsense about standing together against fascism and blah blah.

At its most basic, it's a campaign in which two different types of nationalism are facing off against each other, but here the Yes camp's soft nationalism is forward looking and inclusive, and ALL of the quasi-fascist organisations are on the No side.

That's not disingenious, that's a fact.
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  #154  
Old 26.08.2014, 15:44
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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*Flood of Misinformation*
I'm sorry Sbrinz, I'm not normally a groaner, but that is one heck of a post.

Either you didn't listen to the debate last night (or if you did it went over your head) or you are deliberately misrepresenting what went on.

I don't mind opinions and am glad to debate them on here with people, but for the love of all things holy, please don't write down barefaced lies.

Since you want me to give you an example (one of many) - that all of the currency plan Bs involved using the pound - what piffle - they involved either taking the Euro, using the Pound as a normal traded currency, or creating a Scottish Pound, maybe pegged to GBP, maybe not.

Please for the sake of this debate, stop lying.
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  #155  
Old 26.08.2014, 15:50
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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I was talking to a Scottish small renewable energy business owner a few months back at a party. He is scared shitless about a Yes vote; he doesn't trust Salmond as far as he could throw him and said he would seriously consider moving his business south of the border should a Yes vote prevail. I'm sure he doesn't represent all small business owners, but he probably has a better idea of the situation than any of us sat here on our cosy Swiss backsides.
He's symptomatic of the poor quality and propaganda of the No campaign. Good luck to him though, if he'd rather run his renewables company in a failing country obsessed with subsidising big companies than a small country with an eye on getting in on the renewables market early and encouraging small companies, that's his choice.

I'm sure the Scottish people would like to benefit from his expertise post independence, but again, his choice.
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  #156  
Old 26.08.2014, 15:52
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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But it is a Nationalist campaign, far more so than the supposedly nationalist campaign in Scotland, which is concentrated on making sure the people who actually live in Scotland, regardless of where they come from, have full control of what happens in Scotland, rather than the actual British Nationalist campaign of us being Better Together which is soaked in history and nonsense about standing together against fascism and blah blah.

At its most basic, it's a campaign in which two different types of nationalism are facing off against each other, but here the Yes camp's soft nationalism is forward looking and inclusive, and ALL of the quasi-fascist organisations are on the No side.

That's not disingenious, that's a fact.
I don't know, I'm sure a fair few UKIPers and EDLers are quite keen to be rid of the Scots .
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  #157  
Old 26.08.2014, 15:55
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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He's symptomatic of the poor quality and propaganda of the No campaign. Good luck to him though, if he'd rather run his renewables company in a failing country obsessed with subsidising big companies than a small country with an eye on getting in on the renewables market early and encouraging small companies, that's his choice.

I'm sure the Scottish people would like to benefit from his expertise post independence, but again, his choice.
Or maybe he has a very astute and clear understanding of what Independence will entail and is well aware of the propaganda of the Yes campaign?
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  #158  
Old 26.08.2014, 16:03
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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He's symptomatic of the poor quality and propaganda of the No campaign. ......................

Sterling () job Neil....single handedly staving off the purveyors of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt)....

..and boy do we have more than our fair share in this thread!
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Old 26.08.2014, 16:21
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

pity, the debate is getting nastier on here.

Linking everyone who supports UK with Scotland in it with the EDL, UKIP etc is not only wrong but rather unpleasant

If the Scots vote Yes, then so be it, good for them and I wish them all the best but I think the UK with Scotland in it is better for all.

I think Scotland can succeed as an independent nation, no doubt about it once they get rid of Salmond and his gang but it may take a few years.
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Old 26.08.2014, 16:31
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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pity, the debate is getting nastier on here.

Linking everyone who supports UK with Scotland in it with the EDL, UKIP etc is not only wrong but rather unpleasant
I think Neil was just trying to repudiate the equally insidious suggestion that all 'YES' people were raving bigots who hate the English. We aren't.

The BNP and other selected parties are NO.
Some people on the forum are NO.

This is not a suggestion that some people on the forum are BNP though, is it? Logic fail.
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