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  #21  
Old 30.09.2014, 18:49
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Re: Catalan referendum

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This.

I wonder when we'll get over the myth of independence and recognize both the need for and reality of inter-dependence. Ich sage das als ein Amerikaner, too :P
Thank you, that is what I wanted to say. We have unity, often after previous damaging civil wars, and now why should countries be split up, for the advantage of a few?

I believe Catalonia wants to separate from Spain, because they create most of the wealth in Spain, but disagree with how Madrid spends it. After devolution the result would be two Spanish countries, with the EU supporting the larger but poorer Spain.
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  #22  
Old 30.09.2014, 18:53
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Re: Catalan referendum

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I believe Catalonia wants to separate from Spain, as they create most of the wealth but disagree with how Madrid spends it.
This is what the populists are claiming. Somehow, just like in many other of these "we want independende"-outcries, the truth is not quite that simple - the populists are forgetting how much the state of Spain has invested in Catalonia, as it is, and has been for a long time, the largest receiver of state subsidies.
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  #23  
Old 30.09.2014, 19:16
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Re: Catalan referendum

It seems foreigners don't really understand what is going on in Cataluņa right now so I'll try to summarize the main points:

Like in Switzerland, Spain is governed by a constitution. In the constitution it is prohibited to issue a referendum by a local government asking it's people to decide on a matter like that of independence.

For a referendum to be valid, every Spanish must have a say on the independence of Cataluņa. After all, every Spanish has paid taxes to prevent bankruptcy of Cataluņa. But hey, for some Catalans, they prefer to open embassies abroad and close hospitals, or continue to call Spanish as thieves meanwhile their local politicians have thousand of million of euros from taxes hidden in Switzerland.

Hypocrites aside, all I am saying is, we are on 21st century. In cataluņa Spanish is banned even from cinemas, even its citizens cannot use it or they will get a fine from the government. Muslim and Coran is even more protected than Spanish. In schools they teach young generations with fake history to start manipulating their mind.

The worst part of this is foreigners don't see the reality of the situation, where only less than a million of Catalans seek independence while cataluņa is about 4 million inhabitants. Of course the oligarchy of cataluņa( that of the politicians whose families have thousands of money laundered in Switzerland) are the ones governing by coming into agreement 4 or 5 parties out of 8 in order to govern.

Also, to end, it is not possible to compare Scotland to Cataluņa. Scotland was once an independent country with its boundaries. Cataluņa has always been part of the Spanish crown, it was from Aragon and melted with Castilla. Stop misinformation
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  #24  
Old 30.09.2014, 21:26
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Re: Catalan referendum

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What did they do ...... confuse west with east?
More like north with south. Can you get any more north and still be in Italy?
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  #25  
Old 30.09.2014, 21:35
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Maybe we can begin with Europe?

Catalonians
Basques
Belgians
West Italians
Venetians
Albanians in Hungary
Welsh
Romands
You missed one-
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  #26  
Old 30.09.2014, 21:51
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Re: Catalan referendum

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It seems foreigners don't really understand what is going on in Cataluņa right now so I'll try to summarize the main points:

Like in Switzerland, Spain is governed by a constitution. In the constitution it is prohibited to issue a referendum by a local government asking it's people to decide on a matter like that of independence.

For a referendum to be valid, every Spanish must have a say on the independence of Cataluņa. After all, every Spanish has paid taxes to prevent bankruptcy of Cataluņa. But hey, for some Catalans, they prefer to open embassies abroad and close hospitals, or continue to call Spanish as thieves meanwhile their local politicians have thousand of million of euros from taxes hidden in Switzerland.

Hypocrites aside, all I am saying is, we are on 21st century. In cataluņa Spanish is banned even from cinemas, even its citizens cannot use it or they will get a fine from the government. Muslim and Coran is even more protected than Spanish. In schools they teach young generations with fake history to start manipulating their mind.

The worst part of this is foreigners don't see the reality of the situation, where only less than a million of Catalans seek independence while cataluņa is about 4 million inhabitants. Of course the oligarchy of cataluņa( that of the politicians whose families have thousands of money laundered in Switzerland) are the ones governing by coming into agreement 4 or 5 parties out of 8 in order to govern.

Also, to end, it is not possible to compare Scotland to Cataluņa. Scotland was once an independent country with its boundaries. Cataluņa has always been part of the Spanish crown, it was from Aragon and melted with Castilla. Stop misinformation
the Coran is more protected than Spanish - WTF?
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  #27  
Old 30.09.2014, 21:59
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Re: Catalan referendum

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It seems foreigners don't really understand what is going on in Cataluņa right now so I'll try to summarize the main points:

Like in Switzerland, Spain is governed by a constitution. In the constitution it is prohibited to issue a referendum by a local government asking it's people to decide on a matter like that of independence.

For a referendum to be valid, every Spanish must have a say on the independence of Cataluņa. After all, every Spanish has paid taxes to prevent bankruptcy of Cataluņa. But hey, for some Catalans, they prefer to open embassies abroad and close hospitals, or continue to call Spanish as thieves meanwhile their local politicians have thousand of million of euros from taxes hidden in Switzerland.

Hypocrites aside, all I am saying is, we are on 21st century. In cataluņa Spanish is banned even from cinemas, even its citizens cannot use it or they will get a fine from the government. Muslim and Coran is even more protected than Spanish. In schools they teach young generations with fake history to start manipulating their mind.

The worst part of this is foreigners don't see the reality of the situation, where only less than a million of Catalans seek independence while cataluņa is about 4 million inhabitants. Of course the oligarchy of cataluņa( that of the politicians whose families have thousands of money laundered in Switzerland) are the ones governing by coming into agreement 4 or 5 parties out of 8 in order to govern.

Also, to end, it is not possible to compare Scotland to Cataluņa. Scotland was once an independent country with its boundaries. Cataluņa has always been part of the Spanish crown, it was from Aragon and melted with Castilla. Stop misinformation
Let me guess....you're Catalan, right?
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  #28  
Old 30.09.2014, 22:47
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Why not allow it?
Because Catalonia agreed to the constitution in 1978 and to the autonomy in 2006. They would have to change the constitution to allow referendum on secession. There is no way around the constitution in countries where there is one. The UK works differently.
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  #29  
Old 30.09.2014, 23:24
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Because Catalonia agreed to the constitution in 1978 and to the autonomy in 2006. They would have to change the constitution to allow referendum on secession. There is no way around the constitution in countries where there is one. The UK works differently.
What happens if Catalonia just declares itself independent? I don't think, that the EU would accept it if Spain tried to reintegrate Catalonia by military force, would they?

Besides, isn't the acceptence of the vote in Kosovo by many EU countries, which also was against the Serbian constitution, a precedent for this situation?

Last edited by Laertes; 01.10.2014 at 00:12.
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  #30  
Old 01.10.2014, 01:01
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Re: Catalan referendum

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the EU should insist that this referendum is allowed to go ahead. We cannot critisise the Chinese for their actions inHong Kong and then allow the Spanish to do the same in Catalonia.
Same applies for Crimea referendum?
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  #31  
Old 01.10.2014, 01:02
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Maybe we can begin with Europe?


Albanians in Hungary
Think in fact there is slightly more Albanians in Switzerland, then in Hungary...
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  #32  
Old 01.10.2014, 01:18
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Re: Catalan referendum

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In Scotland we experienced the situtation where devolution can be a very emotive idea.
We cannot allow self centered politicians to break a union that has been in existance for hundreds of years.
Ah suppose you also then support Serbia not only de-iure but to de-facto reintegrate Kosovo?

After all, it is not even a Union, but part of Serbia for more than 10 centuries (perhaps like Kent is a part of England).
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  #33  
Old 01.10.2014, 01:20
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Re: Catalan referendum

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The Croats, Kosovans and Ukranians might beg to differ.
Serbs in Bosnia, too?
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  #34  
Old 01.10.2014, 01:21
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Re: Catalan referendum

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In cataluņa Spanish is banned even from cinemas, even its citizens cannot use it or they will get a fine from the government. Muslim and Coran is even more protected than Spanish. In schools they teach young generations with fake history to start manipulating their mind.
Really not claiming to know any details whatsoever, but I have spoken Spanish in Catalan and not been punished in any way whatsoever
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  #35  
Old 01.10.2014, 01:22
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Re: Catalan referendum

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We have unity, often after previous damaging civil wars, and now why should countries be split up, for the advantage of a few?
Ah, so Yugoslavia should never have split?

Cannot agree more with you Brinz, unfortunately your governments totally disagreed with you.

Oh well... panta rei.
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  #36  
Old 01.10.2014, 01:33
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Re: Catalan referendum

Welcome back, Mikimedic!
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  #37  
Old 01.10.2014, 09:16
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Ah suppose you also then support Serbia not only de-iure but to de-facto reintegrate Kosovo?

After all, it is not even a Union, but part of Serbia for more than 10 centuries (perhaps like Kent is a part of England).
In my opinion, that was very badly handled by everyone.

The Albanians should have gone home, and the Serbs should have been more diplomatic. Today neither country is better off than before, are they?

Which is my point, splitting does not improve either country. it is usually "Better together!"
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  #38  
Old 01.10.2014, 09:19
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Re: Catalan referendum

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The Albanians should have gone home
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  #39  
Old 01.10.2014, 10:31
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Re: Catalan referendum

He probably quoted an SVP poster by accident.
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Old 01.10.2014, 10:33
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Re: Catalan referendum

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The Albanians should have gone home,
Do you live in your own country?
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