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  #41  
Old 01.10.2014, 10:35
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Do you live in your own country?
The Albanians to which Sbrinz refers certainly did!
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  #42  
Old 01.10.2014, 10:37
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Re: Catalan referendum

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The Albanians to which Sbrinz refers certainly did!
how true, sorry got a rough sleep last night, was too busy with the initial glass houses thought to really compute
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  #43  
Old 01.10.2014, 10:55
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Because Catalonia agreed to the constitution in 1978 and to the autonomy in 2006. They would have to change the constitution to allow referendum on secession. There is no way around the constitution in countries where there is one. The UK works differently.
Constitutions can be amended. The problem in Catalonia is a political one, not a legal one.

Catalans have the moral right to decide their own future. Why should they consent to be being governed by foreigeners? If Spain had treated Catalonia fairly in the past, this situation would never have arisen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olZLIC4T9uE
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  #44  
Old 01.10.2014, 10:59
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Re: Catalan referendum

Anyone can see that the Spanish government is dealing with the Catalan issue in a very bad way. Given the feelings of resentment in Catalonia with the way they are being been treated by Spain for many years, the worst you can do is to add fuel to the fire by telling them they cannot organise referendums and that the rest of Spain should vote on what they can and cannot do. I am convinced most Catalans only want additional autonomy within Spain and they do not want to put their strong economy into jeopardy, but if you keep telling people that they do not have the right to decide their own future, you are shifting the silent majority ever further to a situation whereby one day they will just give up on Spain. Of course, any group of people that feel they are a nation should have the right to decide if they want to be independent or not. This is the basis of democracy. If the rest of the world would always have to agree beforehand, no new countries could ever be created. No, Cameron was a lot smarter in telling the Scottish that - of course- they are allowed to vote on their own future but they do not think it is a good idea and they would like Scotland to remain part of the family. Only by the fact of allowing people to take decisions themselves, you will take off pressure. Madrid is doing exactly the opposite.
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  #45  
Old 01.10.2014, 11:46
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Re: Catalan referendum

It does seem to me that they aren't handling it well, it's not like bad feelings like these disappear if ignored. Other than making the vote illegal I wonder if they plan to block it real time? If the vote goes ahead and they vote to leave I wonder what they can do to make that a reality
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  #46  
Old 01.10.2014, 11:51
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Re: Catalan referendum

Perhaps they are also denying themselves the best defense, extreme scare tactics and last minute promises worked in Scotland and a large lead was actually reversed in Quebec, I don't think they are playing a clever game in Spain, plus I believe that people should have a right to vote when they have been peaceful
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  #47  
Old 01.10.2014, 12:02
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Re: Catalan referendum

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the EU should insist that this referendum is allowed to go ahead. We cannot critisise the Chinese for their actions inHong Kong and then allow the Spanish to do the same in Catalonia.
Excellent point!
The people should be given the right to vote.
Just like the Scots every decade or so.
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  #48  
Old 01.10.2014, 12:04
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Re: Catalan referendum

There is only one effective way to establish one's own nation state, and it isn't through the ballot box.
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  #49  
Old 01.10.2014, 12:08
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Re: Catalan referendum

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There is only one effective way to establish one's own nation state, and it isn't through the ballot box.
Sadly I think you might be right and I think it might come to that in Spain
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Old 01.10.2014, 12:09
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Same applies for Crimea referendum?
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Serbs in Bosnia, too?
Well, it should be obvious by now that the Bosnians can decide to leave Yugoslavia but the Serbians who leave in Bosnia in Serbian-majority areas that happen to be neighboring Serbia cannot vote to join Serbia.

Just kidding, I completely agree with you that Crimea should have the right to join Russia and the Serbian areas of BH should have the right to join Serbia and finally yes, that it is about time Catalunya became an independent country.
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  #51  
Old 01.10.2014, 12:10
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Re: Catalan referendum

The amicable split of Czech and Slovakia is the template which should be used here.
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  #52  
Old 01.10.2014, 16:15
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Re: Catalan referendum

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The Albanians should have gone home
Not really, as Serbia has always been and remains their home.
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  #53  
Old 01.10.2014, 16:17
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Anyone can see that the Spanish government is dealing with the Catalan issue in a very bad way. Given the feelings of resentment in Catalonia with the way they are being been treated by Spain for many years, the worst you can do is to add fuel to the fire by telling them they cannot organise referendums and that the rest of Spain should vote on what they can and cannot do. I am convinced most Catalans only want additional autonomy within Spain and they do not want to put their strong economy into jeopardy, but if you keep telling people that they do not have the right to decide their own future, you are shifting the silent majority ever further to a situation whereby one day they will just give up on Spain. Of course, any group of people that feel they are a nation should have the right to decide if they want to be independent or not. This is the basis of democracy. If the rest of the world would always have to agree beforehand, no new countries could ever be created. No, Cameron was a lot smarter in telling the Scottish that - of course- they are allowed to vote on their own future but they do not think it is a good idea and they would like Scotland to remain part of the family. Only by the fact of allowing people to take decisions themselves, you will take off pressure. Madrid is doing exactly the opposite.
Not only Spain, but EU official policy on many fronts, when it suits them.

The Crimea and Republika Srpska, for example.
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  #54  
Old 01.10.2014, 16:43
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Re: Catalan referendum

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More like north with south. Can you get any more north and still be in Italy?
New York?
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  #55  
Old 01.10.2014, 16:44
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Because Catalonia agreed to the constitution in 1978 and to the autonomy in 2006. They would have to change the constitution to allow referendum on secession. There is no way around the constitution in countries where there is one. The UK works differently.
are you so sure?

Apartheid was once anchored in a constitution you know.
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  #56  
Old 01.10.2014, 16:46
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Re: Catalan referendum

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What happens if Catalonia just declares itself independent? I don't think, that the EU would accept it if Spain tried to reintegrate Catalonia by military force, would they?
It wouldn't have to be a military force though. Just some pro-Spanish rebels who would suddenly and mysteriously be armed and equipped. I'm sure Mr Putin can explain the details.
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Old 01.10.2014, 16:52
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Do you live in your own country?
I would like to, but declaring independence is not as easy as you might think. If you can't have a country all to yourself it's not strictly speaking *yours*, but it's a country owned by a vague construct called *the people* which is just a legal hack the big guys use to force you to pay taxes and live according to arcane laws you were never consulted over. I thus don't have a country I can in any way call my own.
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  #58  
Old 01.10.2014, 16:54
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Well, it should be obvious by now that the Bosnians can decide to leave Yugoslavia but the Serbians who leave in Bosnia in Serbian-majority areas that happen to be neighboring Serbia cannot vote to join Serbia.

Just kidding, I completely agree with you that Crimea should have the right to join Russia and the Serbian areas of BH should have the right to join Serbia and finally yes, that it is about time Catalunya became an independent country.
fully agre

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  #59  
Old 01.10.2014, 16:58
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Re: Catalan referendum

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the way they are being been treated by Spain for many years
Spain has not always been above board and totally honorable towards Catalonia, or indeed any of its national minorities. With this I agree. But I think there is also much exaggeration and bad blood coming from the Catalonian side. Childishly silly anti-Spanish car bumper stickers and the painting out of Spanish roadsigns is not a mature way to lead a discussion on nationahood.
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  #60  
Old 01.10.2014, 17:01
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Re: Catalan referendum

as my granny used to say, it will all end in tears
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