Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 01.10.2014, 19:31
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Geneva
Posts: 186
Groaned at 26 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 21 Times in 17 Posts
michleman is considered unworthymichleman is considered unworthymichleman is considered unworthymichleman is considered unworthy
Re: Catalan referendum

Quote:
View Post
It wouldn't have to be a military force though. Just some pro-Spanish rebels who would suddenly and mysteriously be armed and equipped. I'm sure Mr Putin can explain the details.
Perhaps you wanted to say 'pro-Catalan' rebels, I suppose... if you wanted to make any analogy to Ukraine...
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 01.10.2014, 20:01
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan referendum

Quote:
View Post
are you so sure?

Apartheid was once anchored in a constitution you know.
Yes, I am sure: if the constitution doesn't fit to whomever for any reason, it can be amended, it's in the constitution. The procedures are locked for any given change proposal. No way around it. Changing the constitution IS in the constitution.
In other words:
If the change is anti constitutional, then there is no change. If the Catalans break off without full respect of the present constitution, then they are Spanish even if they think they are independent. Hence: they can't. On top of it: Catalunia needs Madrid to pay their regional debt.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 01.10.2014, 21:28
Dack Rambo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,439
Groaned at 178 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 1,551 Times in 765 Posts
Dack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of many
Re: Catalan referendum

Quote:
View Post
Yes, I am sure: if the constitution doesn't fit to whomever for any reason, it can be amended, it's in the constitution. The procedures are locked for any given change proposal. No way around it. Changing the constitution IS in the constitution.
In other words:
If the change is anti constitutional, then there is no change. If the Catalans break off without full respect of the present constitution, then they are Spanish even if they think they are independent. Hence: they can't. On top of it: Catalunia needs Madrid to pay their regional debt.
so change the constitution and let the vote go ahead. simple
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 02.10.2014, 07:55
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan referendum

Quote:
View Post
so change the constitution and let the vote go ahead. simple
Getting Madrid to change the constitution to let the referendum go ahead will be anything but simple.
On top of it, paying the catalan debt without Madrid will not only be not-simple, it will be impossible, it be you pay the bill. That would be simple.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 02.10.2014, 11:02
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,403
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,598 Times in 6,210 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan referendum

Quote:
View Post
Getting Madrid to change the constitution to let the referendum go ahead will be anything but simple.
On top of it, paying the catalan debt without Madrid will not only be not-simple, it will be impossible, it be you pay the bill. That would be simple.
Had Scotland's independence gone ahead, Scotland would have assumed some portion of the UK's national debt. I don't know where the idea comes from that an independent Catalonia wouldn't assume some portion of Spain's debt and obligations, or be able to handle that.

Catalonia has a lot of industry, it also has a lot of productive agriculture, having better access to water than the south of Spain. The Catalonian coast is one string of succesful tourist resorts (and nicer and more up-market ones than those further south). Of course the Catalonian economy can pull it off.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 02.10.2014, 11:04
Dack Rambo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,439
Groaned at 178 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 1,551 Times in 765 Posts
Dack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of many
Re: Catalan referendum

Quote:
View Post
Getting Madrid to change the constitution to let the referendum go ahead will be anything but simple.
On top of it, paying the catalan debt without Madrid will not only be not-simple, it will be impossible, it be you pay the bill. That would be simple.
Debts of all southern european regions are paid by German taxpayers. The Germans would also have to financially support an independent Catalonia, otherwise some German banks could be at risk.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Dack Rambo for this useful post:
  #67  
Old 02.10.2014, 19:00
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan referendum

Quote:
View Post
Had Scotland's independence gone ahead, Scotland would have assumed some portion of the UK's national debt. I don't know where the idea comes from that an independent Catalonia wouldn't assume some portion of Spain's debt and obligations, or be able to handle that.
The point is that Catalonia can't assume its own Catalan debt in the first place. They are not able to handle their own regional debt as an autonomous region now, and independence won't change that. Madrid paying the debt of a region, even autonomous, makes sense - Madrid paying the debt of a foreign country doesn't.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 02.10.2014, 20:39
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,403
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,598 Times in 6,210 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan referendum

Quote:
View Post
The point is that Catalonia can't assume its own Catalan debt in the first place. They are not able to handle their own regional debt as an autonomous region now, and independence won't change that. Madrid paying the debt of a region, even autonomous, makes sense - Madrid paying the debt of a foreign country doesn't.
If it is true that

(a) Madrid is able to pay the Catalan debt and
(b) Catalonia isn't.

This means the economic power of Spain minus Catalonia must be quite a bit larger than that of Catalonia. As Catalonia is not the only region in Spain to have serious debt, this means the surplus that Spain minus Catalonia is generating is larger than what is required to service Catalonia's debt, whereas Catalonia does not have the economic ability to service even its own part of the debt.

This doesn't have much to do with reality as Catalonia is very much the economic powerhouse of Spain.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #69  
Old 02.10.2014, 21:33
Dack Rambo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,439
Groaned at 178 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 1,551 Times in 765 Posts
Dack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of many
Re: Catalan referendum

Quote:
View Post
The point is that Catalonia can't assume its own Catalan debt in the first place. They are not able to handle their own regional debt as an autonomous region now, and independence won't change that. Madrid paying the debt of a region, even autonomous, makes sense - Madrid paying the debt of a foreign country doesn't.
catalonia gets less central government than it feels is due to it. to compensate for this they run up debt which spain must guarantee. this is a deliberate strategy, not an inability to balance the books. an independent catalonia would not have any debt as the debts of all spanish regions are effectivly spanish national debt. this has been pointed out by leading german economists.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 02.10.2014, 21:38
panda's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 170
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 90 Times in 57 Posts
panda is considered knowledgeablepanda is considered knowledgeablepanda is considered knowledgeable
Re: Catalan referendum

The more I read the more I wonder why Madrid doesn't just amend the constitution and hope that Catalan goes. If they cost so much to subsidise then why the rest of the Spanish population doesn't support it is utterly beyond me.

The more I read the more I see similarities with Scotland, that oil rich country that many people seem to think the financially support.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank panda for this useful post:
  #71  
Old 02.10.2014, 22:19
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan referendum

Quote:
View Post
This means the economic power of Spain minus Catalonia must be quite a bit larger than that of Catalonia. .
No it doesn't. Catalonia pays what it can off this debt and Madrid subsidize. Highest debt and highest part of produced value is no a contradiction at all in the first place.
I however don't mind any kind of referendum about people's freedom of self-determination. If one accept it once, one must accept it all the time. Some people accepted the Kosovo one, others the Crimean one etc. I don't mind. If the Catalan want to vote, they'll vote. But the vote will be anti constitutional. Some claim that the Kosovo one was anti constitutional and they got independence, others claim that the Crimean one was anti constitutional and they broke off. So yea, Catalunia can do pretty much what it wants with the right friends. Now: Who are Catalunia's friends?
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 03.10.2014, 09:54
Dack Rambo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,439
Groaned at 178 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 1,551 Times in 765 Posts
Dack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of many
Re: Catalan referendum

Quote:
View Post
No it doesn't. Catalonia pays what it can off this debt and Madrid subsidize. Highest debt and highest part of produced value is no a contradiction at all in the first place.
I however don't mind any kind of referendum about people's freedom of self-determination. If one accept it once, one must accept it all the time. Some people accepted the Kosovo one, others the Crimean one etc. I don't mind. If the Catalan want to vote, they'll vote. But the vote will be anti constitutional. Some claim that the Kosovo one was anti constitutional and they got independence, others claim that the Crimean one was anti constitutional and they broke off. So yea, Catalunia can do pretty much what it wants with the right friends. Now: Who are Catalunia's friends?
some fair points but two things I would like to point out:

1/ The "referendum" the Catalan governement is proposing is actually a non-legally binding plebiscite (which is why I fail to undertsnad how it can be unconstitutional)

2/ Catalonia has as much weight on the international stage as Spain does ie SFA. Their squabble does however have potential to damage the eurozone economy. If this drags on and Spain fails to find a solution, countries such as Germany and France may come around to the Catalan point of view. Why not accept Catalonia as a new EU country and expel Spain? It is a hopelessly inefficient and corrupt country which has made no progress despite years of EU subsidies.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Dack Rambo for this useful post:
  #73  
Old 03.10.2014, 15:01
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,403
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,598 Times in 6,210 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan referendum

Quote:
View Post
Isn't that Alexei Sayle on the right?
He certainly looks happy to have such a powerful friend.

Like Rajoy when he's with Merkel.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 04.02.2015, 11:16
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Basel
Posts: 7
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Krles has no particular reputation at present
Re: Catalan referendum

Take note that there are some people in Alsace that would like to be independent too. And also some people from Jura canton in Switzerland.

Siau!

Carles
Reply With Quote
This user groans at Krles for this post:
  #75  
Old 04.02.2015, 11:48
xandeo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Top right corner
Posts: 270
Groaned at 26 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 297 Times in 126 Posts
xandeo is considered knowledgeablexandeo is considered knowledgeablexandeo is considered knowledgeable
Re: Catalan referendum

Quote:
View Post
Take note that there are some people in Alsace that would like to be independent too. And also some people from Jura canton in Switzerland.

Siau!

Carles
Sure, but we don't see either of them organizing ILLEGAL populist referendums, do we?

And what a joke of a referendum the catalans pulled off! It didn't matter how people voted, as every vote, no matter the vote, would count as a "pro"-vote. The only way to vote against it was to not vote at all - it's like kindergarden democracy. There wasn't even a clear official number of counted votes!

The whole thing was a bad joke. A really bad one. Please do not compare the catalans to the people in Jura or Alsace - it's disrespectful.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 10.11.2015, 06:53
eddiejc1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Derwood, MD USA
Posts: 983
Groaned at 20 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 639 Times in 355 Posts
eddiejc1 has an excellent reputationeddiejc1 has an excellent reputationeddiejc1 has an excellent reputationeddiejc1 has an excellent reputation
Re: Catalan referendum

The Catalan parliament today voted to begin the process of seceding from Spain, possibly as early as 2017.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ins-government
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank eddiejc1 for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
autonomy, referendum




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Swiss hold referendum referendum The Local Swiss news via The Local 1 15.06.2012 12:43
Catalan sheepdog, 4 year old male, needs a forever home rosrae Pet Trading Post 4 03.10.2011 17:44
Any Catalan in here? Nil General off-topic 22 04.07.2011 17:07
Catalan Wine milengua Food and drink 3 26.04.2010 15:31
Catalan/Spanish elenadisco Language corner 4 15.07.2009 13:44


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:36.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0