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  #521  
Old 11.03.2015, 12:05
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

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This will make happy those EF members who were demanding "Please provide unequivocal documentation of these alleged "Russian military incursions."

However unnerving for the rest of us as Putin seems to be demonstrating he believes he is empowered to do whatever he wants to do with no fear of retribution
Must admit I didn't think it was direct Russian involvement from the top like that.

So about the referendum result, was that genuine? Most of the people interviewed afterwards seemed to say they voted for the split.
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Old 11.03.2015, 14:02
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

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Must admit I didn't think it was direct Russian involvement from the top like that.

So about the referendum result, was that genuine? Most of the people interviewed afterwards seemed to say they voted for the split.
Regarding "the people interviewed after the referendum": there was a big climate of fear and intimidation there, with Russian military patrolling the streets, anti-Ukrainian propaganda on TV....most people who were against joining Russia were hiding at home in fear of repraisals.


But yes, Crimea has a big chunk of ethnic Russians, but alot of ethnic Ukrainians and Tatars also. Probably around 50% of the population voting to join Russia would be believable, the official "referendum" result of 95% is a clear sham. Holding a referendum under gun-point of an invading army clearly invalidates the results in any case.
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  #523  
Old 11.03.2015, 16:42
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

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Regarding "the people interviewed after the referendum": there was a big climate of fear and intimidation there, with Russian military patrolling the streets, anti-Ukrainian propaganda on TV....most people who were against joining Russia were hiding at home in fear of repraisals.


But yes, Crimea has a big chunk of ethnic Russians, but alot of ethnic Ukrainians and Tatars also. Probably around 50% of the population voting to join Russia would be believable, the official "referendum" result of 95% is a clear sham. Holding a referendum under gun-point of an invading army clearly invalidates the results in any case.
I agree you would have to be brave to show your face on TV and state that you voted against.
I also agree that any vote in any country that scores so high is suspicious.

You could also have an interesting debate about how enthusiastic would be the young people of Russian descent who were born and grew up in Crimea to become Russian.
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  #524  
Old 11.03.2015, 20:42
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

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when the Swiss signed the sanctions they added a clause which states that contracts signed before the sanctions would have to be fulfilled.

Switzerland has NOT signed the sanctions. Some restrictions yes, but not the sanctions
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  #525  
Old 12.03.2015, 17:46
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

Russia’s top federal law enforcement agency has opened a criminal probe into the statement by a retired US Army general, who said that the Ukrainian crisis could only be settled by “killing Russians.”

The criminal case was started against Robert H. Scales on charges of public calls for starting an aggressive war made in the media, the chief spokesman for the Investigative Committee, Vladimir Markin, told reporters Thursday. Under the Russian Criminal Code this crime can carry up to five years in prison.

According to the Investigative Committee, Scales’s statement also violated article 20 of the United Nations’ International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which bans any propaganda of war and instigations for discrimination, hatred or violence
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Old 12.03.2015, 17:51
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

Switzerland has added 19 people and nine organisations from Russia to a sanction list, to prevent those implicated from circumventing Western imposed sanctions on Russia.

Switzerland is not bound directly by EU sanctions against Russia, however the Swiss are obligated by various governing trade agreements.

The new sanctions were accompanied by revelations in the local press over the weekend, that Russia has acquired hi-tech camouflage netting from a Swiss contractor valued at 85 million euro’s.

The contract was signed before Bern had imposed sanctions against Moscow over the Ukraine conflict

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Switzerland has NOT signed the sanctions. Some restrictions yes, but not the sanctions
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  #527  
Old 12.03.2015, 17:57
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

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Russia’s top federal law enforcement agency has opened a criminal probe into the statement by a retired US Army general, who said that the Ukrainian crisis could only be settled by “killing Russians.”

The criminal case was started against Robert H. Scales on charges of public calls for starting an aggressive war made in the media, the chief spokesman for the Investigative Committee, Vladimir Markin, told reporters Thursday. Under the Russian Criminal Code this crime can carry up to five years in prison.

According to the Investigative Committee, Scales’s statement also violated article 20 of the United Nations’ International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which bans any propaganda of war and instigations for discrimination, hatred or violence
I think the appropriate expression is "clutching at straws" or maybe "exporting repression".
Of course "freedom of speech" is not one of Russia's major triumphs.

Wonder when Putin will be investigated?
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  #528  
Old 12.03.2015, 18:21
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

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Switzerland is not bound directly by EU sanctions against Russia, however the Swiss are obligated by various governing trade agreements.
Switzerland had no obligation to join the sanctions against Russia. However, the reason for imposing what was imposed was indeed to prevent bypassing US- and EU-sanctions.
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  #529  
Old 12.03.2015, 18:26
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

Sweden will put troops back on the strategic Baltic Sea island of Gotland after a decade-long absence as increased sabre-rattling from Russia causes concerns.

Sweden is not a NATO member and after the many years of peace had (like many Western nations) severely reduced it's military.
Great shame that such actions are seen as necessary now; I guess we all thought this would be a peaceful century and we would not be dragged back into the stupid wars of the last century.
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  #530  
Old 12.03.2015, 18:35
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

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Sweden will put troops back on the strategic Baltic Sea island of Gotland after a decade-long absence as increased sabre-rattling from Russia causes concerns.

Sweden is not a NATO member and after the many years of peace had (like many Western nations) severely reduced it's military.
Great shame that such actions are seen as necessary now; I guess we all thought this would be a peaceful century and we would not be dragged back into the stupid wars of the last century.
Factually correct, but the Swedes have been a NATO PfP (Partnership for Peace) member since 1994. Whilst this sounds like a nation keeping their neutrality it allows them many benefits that Switzerland, for example, doesn't have. For example easier transfer of military technology, better weapon systems and shared intel. Not to forget that Sweden was allowed to play with their toys during the Libya situation a few years ago without "directly participating". Helps your domestic companies to peddle their wares on the international market when they're "mission tested".

I've studied the Cold War and believe that the Swedes better understood how the Soviets would have fought and therefore prepared their country better than any other western European nation if conflict would have happened.
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  #531  
Old 12.03.2015, 18:49
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

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So about the referendum result, was that genuine? Most of the people interviewed afterwards seemed to say they voted for the split.
It doesn't take a referendum to know that a large majority in Crimea consider it a Russian territory. I personally would have preferred Ukraine to invent itself by embracing its diversity instead of pushing a minority up to a cultural aristocracy, but I don't decide for others. The Crimean voting was of course non representative in the sense that the pro-statusquo part of the population preferred to sit and wait, but one must distinguish two things:

- Being for the status quo does not mean being for the nato-sponsored Kiev government. People loved it the way it was before the putsch, any change is seen as wrong but the Russian identity was strong and unquestionable all the time, they just didn't mind being Russian under Ukrainian government so far. There are quite a few people with no rush to become part of Russia but with no adhesion to the nato projects either.

- Even if the results do not represent the vote of the total of the population, it doesn't take that much knowledge about Crimea to know that the majority for Russia was secure even without fraud. The political smart thing to do is to avoid such a referendum anyway and build up a common ground for ukrainian diversity. But the nationalists don't want it. The results over 95% are maybe ridiculous, but the perception of danger won the vote and pushed Crimea into the Russian federation. I can imagine that some are sure that Putin just profited from the situation, but I have no doubt that a large majority of Crimeans didn't mind being used.
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Last edited by Faltrad; 12.03.2015 at 19:21.
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  #532  
Old 12.03.2015, 19:41
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

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It doesn't take a referendum to know that a large majority in Crimea consider it a Russian territory. The voting was of course non representative in the sense that the pro-statusquo preferred to sit and wait, but one must distinguish two things:

- Being for the status quo does not mean being for the nato-sponsored Kiev government. People loved it the way it was before the putsch, any change is seen as wrong but the Russian identity was strong and unquestionable all the time, they just didn't mind being Russian under Ukrainian government so far. There are quite a few people with no rush to become part of Russia but with no adhesion to the nato projects either. I am not a friend of said government but even I can see that there was objectively no danger for Crimeans to stay under Ukraine, but their perception was different. In that context, no doubt that the adhesion for Russia was certain, while the same people would have voted no two years ago.

- Even if the results do not represent the vote of the total of the population, it doesn't take that much knowledge about Crimea to know that the majority for Russia was secure even without fraud. The results over 95% are maybe ridiculous, be it doesn't mean that a vote with massive participation would have said no to the split. The large majority was certain, even if not 95% of course.
About "for the nato-sponsored Kiev government." Do you have a reputable source for this statement?
So far I have seen NATO has reacted quite coldly to the various Ukraine requests to become a member although Ukraine has been a member of the NATO's Partnership for Peace programme since 1994 so NATO cooperation is not new for Ukraine.
NATO has never invited Ukraine to join although Hungary, the Czech Republic, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Bulgaria, and Romania were all invited to join NATO,
At the NATO summit in Bucharest in April 2008, NATO decided it would not yet offer membership to Georgia and Ukraine.
It is rumoured at least three NATO members did not actively support Ukraine membership (US, France and Germany) and NATO requires 100% support from its members.

Since Russia's recent various aggressive actions it seems the idea of joining NATO has become more popular in Ukraine with poll results showing popular support has risen from 15% to over 50%.
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  #533  
Old 12.03.2015, 19:43
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

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Factually correct, but the Swedes have been a NATO PfP (Partnership for Peace) member since 1994. Whilst this sounds like a nation keeping their neutrality it allows them many benefits that Switzerland, for example, doesn't have. For example easier transfer of military technology, better weapon systems and shared intel. Not to forget that Sweden was allowed to play with their toys during the Libya situation a few years ago without "directly participating". Helps your domestic companies to peddle their wares on the international market when they're "mission tested".

I've studied the Cold War and believe that the Swedes better understood how the Soviets would have fought and therefore prepared their country better than any other western European nation if conflict would have happened.
About "but the Swedes have been a NATO PfP (Partnership for Peace) member since 1994." True but so has Ukraine so I am not sure how substantial are the benefits
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  #534  
Old 12.03.2015, 19:52
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

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nato-sponsored Kiev government
Please substantiate this claim.

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it doesn't take that much knowledge about Crimea to know that the majority for Russia was secure even without fraud.
As in "it would be nice to join Mother-Russia" if it were possible,
or "regardless of our Ukrainian, Tatar and other neighbors let's join Russia as an exclave and jail/kill anybody opposing it"?
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  #535  
Old 12.03.2015, 20:36
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

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Since Russia's recent various aggressive actions it seems the idea of joining NATO has become more popular in Ukraine with poll results showing popular support has risen from 15% to over 50%.
It is exactly the same mass-psychological phenomenon as in Crimea. Nobody really wanted to change the situation. The rhetorics provoked the change. Call it agression if you will, I don't mind. But I don't mind either when others call the government change an anti constitutional coup d'état. The reaction to the perceived threat is the same, just not in the same direction as the rhetorics doesn't show them the same direction.

If you people don't believe that the US finances the political "changes" in not only Ukraine, I am afraid there is no source that can convince you. I am fine with agreeing to disagree. You can't prove they don't finance it either and the money must come from somewhere. The usual informal fallacies do not impress me. I know what I know, I believe what I believe - and I don't mind at all that you know and believe otherwise.

Remember that people in Ukraine two years ago were protesting against corruption. Anything else has been added to fit agendas that are not Ukrainian people's agenda. Again, I don't mind, but I have a good memory.
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  #536  
Old 12.03.2015, 22:01
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

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It is exactly the same mass-psychological phenomenon as in Crimea. Nobody really wanted to change the situation. The rhetorics provoked the change. Call it agression if you will, I don't mind. But I don't mind either when others call the government change an anti constitutional coup d'état. The reaction to the perceived threat is the same, just not in the same direction as the rhetorics doesn't show them the same direction.

If you people don't believe that the US finances the political "changes" in not only Ukraine, I am afraid there is no source that can convince you. I am fine with agreeing to disagree. You can't prove they don't finance it either and the money must come from somewhere. The usual informal fallacies do not impress me. I know what I know, I believe what I believe - and I don't mind at all that you know and believe otherwise.

Remember that people in Ukraine two years ago were protesting against corruption. Anything else has been added to fit agendas that are not Ukrainian people's agenda. Again, I don't mind, but I have a good memory.
About "Call it aggression if you will, I don't mind" Well some people might describe sending soldiers and tanks and heavy weapons to East Ukraine and having 5,000+ resulting deaths as aggression - if you do not want to that is OK for me.

About "If you people don't believe that the US finances the political "changes"" Well first you write NATO now you write US - so to be clear who exactly do you want to blame?

I do not know if the US finances the political "changes" but if they do then you could argue that it is better than Russia sending tanks and killing 5,000+ people?
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  #537  
Old 12.03.2015, 22:43
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

The EU has blocked Hungary’s €12bn nuclear deal with Russia, in a decision that is likely to inflame tensions between the Kremlin and Brussels.
The ruling from the European Commission is a setback for Viktor Orban, Hungary’s prime minister, who has courted the Kremlin despite the conflict in Ukraine.

Of course Viktor Orban must have known that this deal would break a number of EU regulations from "open competition" to Euratom rules on "nuclear fuel supply".

So what exactly Orban was expecting and what his real goals were are somewhat of a mystery. Maybe he thought that if he portrays himself as a willing Russian customer who is blocked by the EU then there is no risk of Russia turning of his supplies of traditional fuels. Or maybe he thought he was immune to EU rules?
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  #538  
Old 12.03.2015, 22:50
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

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Well first you write NATO now you write US - so to be clear who exactly do you want to blame?
Do you really make a difference between US and Nato? wow, we definitely don't live in the same world.
I don't like Russia like it is today, I don't like to see a country imploding because of geopolitical agendas, but I will not sink as low as trusting the US for anything either. Too much on file already.
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Old 12.03.2015, 22:59
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

Just a reminder, Putin joined into NATO's PfP program as well...

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Russia ratifies Partnership for Peace
Status of Forces Agreement


Russia signed the Partnership for Peace Status of Forces Agreement (commonly referred to as the PfP SOFA) in 2004 and it was ratified by the Russian parliament in May 2007.



The PfP SOFA will greatly facilitate further military-to-military cooperation and other practical cooperation between Russia and NATO member states and other Partner countries. In particular, it will make it easier to deploy forces to participate in joint operations and exercises.


It should also pave the way for Russian logistical support to the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan. In particular, it will enable a framework agreement on air transport to be developed between NATO and Russia.
http://www.nato.int/docu/update/2007/05-may/e0523b.html
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Old 12.03.2015, 23:06
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Re: Russia and NATO in the News

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Do you really make a difference between US and Nato? wow, we definitely don't live in the same world.
I don't like Russia like it is today, I don't like to see a country imploding because of geopolitical agendas, but I will not sink as low as trusting the US for anything either. Too much on file already.
About "Do you really make a difference between US and Nato? wow, we definitely don't live in the same world. "

True we certainly do not live in the same world.
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