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  #221  
Old 04.12.2014, 12:29
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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You haven't even read what I've written, have you?
I said that thanks to the EU, and thanks to people moving around Europe freely, making friends and falling in love, we make sure that there will be no more wars in Europe.
Your reference to what was the case before the EU actually strengthens my arguments (not that there was need for this, I assume everybody else but you understood what I said).


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  #222  
Old 04.12.2014, 12:51
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

Actuallaly maybe politicians thought it will be easier to "sell" the idea of EU with this freedom of movement, before the immigration grew to such a scale. (not just from Eastern Europe, but also from Southern - by far the largest "minority" in my office are Southerners). Now the political effect of discontent of the societies and power of lobbies profiting/loosing on this may lead to another "accepted" state, maybe done within limits of today's EU laws and treaties - what Switzerland is negotiating post-February vote.
So, if "restricted freedom of movement of people" sells better, we will be there soon. For example "free movement of services" hasn't been enacted yet.

Recently NZZ wrote that many business associations in Switzerland are changing their tone about vitality of "Bilaterallen" with EU. Same could be happening in UK?
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Old 04.12.2014, 13:01
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

I think the bigger loss is psychological. It diminishes national identity, as well as cultural identity. Everyone loses sovereignty and autonomy to a cabal in Brussels, and so few people even understand how they operate and make decisions. Its even got to a point where trying to reclaim some of this back will be labelled as an intolerant, nationalistic and even a racist impulse. I find that very unfortunate for the psyche of Europeans. But it is apparently fine for those who hate themselves anyway.
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  #224  
Old 04.12.2014, 13:07
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I guess you over-romanticise the EU a bit there. I agree with MG, the EU isn't anything but a capitalist bloc.
It's about capitalism but also about securing that peace Lweton was talking about. Europeans are some tribes after all each believing they are the salt of the earth, each believing they're the centre of universe, it's human nature. (we're not unique, someone living in a tent in Sahara also believes that right there lies the centre of universe)
Unfortunately, at the "right" time and with the "right" people some ideas of this kind could still lead to other unpleasant things, I don't believe it's about civilisation here, Germany was civilised enough before second ww, to give only one example.
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Old 04.12.2014, 13:09
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

I know very few families around here who are not mixed- be it Swiss/Portuguese, Swiss/Spanish, Swiss/Italians, Swiss/Yugo/Balkan, and every possible combination- mostly inter European- and the majority now feel much more European than 'Swiss' (as we do btw).
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  #226  
Old 04.12.2014, 13:19
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Cameron announced a series of measures including a 4 year ban before getting welfare for immigrants. If immigrants don't find a job within 6 months they are sent back home. Clearly in the target are immigrants from eastern europe (Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, ..)
At least some of our EF british friends and other foreigners will spend 50% of their criticism on UK and not only on CH.
"The British - went and conquered half the world and got all upset when some of those people followed them home" - Tommy Tiernan
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Old 04.12.2014, 13:30
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Oh the horror.
Since when is Capitalism bad?
Really? Am I back at Greek university trying to hopelessly argue with the leftists?
I prefer Capitalism to pretty much all the alternatives I've heard about and I'm glad I was born in the capitalist side of the world.
Though to be honest, I like the European variation of Capitalism more than other versions.

Is this your problem with the EU? That it's capitalistic?
I have plenty of issues with the EU and I mean real issues, not vague remarks about it being capitalistic.

I was specifically answering DB who was asking why European citizens should have priority over non European citizens. Do you disagree that by making sure that we all move around freely and get to know each other we have drastically reduced the risk of a new war in Europe?

To our Ukrainian friends: my apologies but in this context Ukraine is not part of Europe. I sincerely hope your country becomes a full member in the next couple of decades.
My point is that the EU has nothing to do with peace. It all has to do with more profits, more money, that's it.
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  #228  
Old 04.12.2014, 13:36
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I think the bigger loss is psychological. It diminishes national identity, as well as cultural identity. Everyone loses sovereignty and autonomy to a cabal in Brussels, and so few people even understand how they operate and make decisions. Its even got to a point where trying to reclaim some of this back will be labelled as an intolerant, nationalistic and even a racist impulse. I find that very unfortunate for the psyche of Europeans. But it is apparently fine for those who hate themselves anyway.
At the most recent EU Parliament election, the majority of the electorate once again voted for parties that support a more integrated Europe, so obviously there are a lot of people that would not agree with you!
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  #229  
Old 04.12.2014, 13:50
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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For example "free movement of services" hasn't been enacted yet.
Really? the 'Directive on services in the Internal Market', with an implementation date of the 28th of Dec 2009, would seem to suggest otherwise!
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  #230  
Old 04.12.2014, 14:00
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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It's about capitalism but also about securing that peace Lweton was talking about. Europeans are some tribes after all each believing they are the salt of the earth, each believing they're the centre of universe, it's human nature. (we're not unique, someone living in a tent in Sahara also believes that right there lies the centre of universe)
Unfortunately, at the "right" time and with the "right" people some ideas of this kind could still lead to other unpleasant things, I don't believe it's about civilisation here, Germany was civilised enough before second ww, to give only one example.
I'm sure they can find many other ways to secure peace than establishing the EU. That they attempt to maintain peace within the EU is inevitable as conducive situations are important for making profits, although as we see nowadays that might not always work. But me thinks securing peace is the not the main reason for the existence of the EU as a supranational project.
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  #231  
Old 04.12.2014, 14:06
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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What did EU achieved in terms of conflict in Ukraine and how it promptly resolved it? Maybe we should ask those Dutch family members who lost their beloved ones in the senseless shooting down of the plane? I would like to see those immigrants agreeing with you who left behind their beloved one's and children taking up work in other countries. Their choice of course, right? No to mention split families and distant relationships. I could go on and on various countries currencies depreciation and economic crises more down south ...

How further EU will make sure that wars and conflicts are prevented we or our successors shall see in the future of your romantic EU bubble.
Well to point out the obvious, the Ukraine is not an EU member so you could just as well ask the same question of the USA, the UN or any other body you care to mention...

The fact remains that the EU has prevented the main antagonists of the both world wars from resorting to further conflict. And as the countries be come more and more integrated, particularly Euroland the changes of that happening again is extremely unlikely. The Euro has taken one hell of a beating during the last recession, but to many people's surprise the countries who make up the Euro regions to not break up as expected, in fact the opposite the stood together and are more integrated today than they were at the start of the crisis!
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  #232  
Old 04.12.2014, 14:08
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Have you been in London recently? Around Hyde Park it's bad. The demographics have changed quite a bit, not for the better. I felt it wasnt much to expect people in shops/restaurants in London to understand English.
The above comment of mine was bad enough for 2 groans? Why? Is it up for debate the homeless in Hyde Park or the feel of the city changing?

Was I wrong to expect to be able to order a meal in english in London?
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  #233  
Old 04.12.2014, 14:11
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I think the bigger loss is psychological. It diminishes national identity, as well as cultural identity. Everyone loses sovereignty and autonomy to a cabal in Brussels, and so few people even understand how they operate and make decisions. Its even got to a point where trying to reclaim some of this back will be labelled as an intolerant, nationalistic and even a racist impulse. I find that very unfortunate for the psyche of Europeans. But it is apparently fine for those who hate themselves anyway.
...and you think "culture" could be preserved behind closed doors, in a formalin jar or something like some sort of specimen in a museum of natural sciences?
Culture is evolving anyway, especially in a globalised world. What next, let's ban the kebap because we need to preserve our sacrosanct chicken sandwich.
The real challange lies in how this decision making process will offer viable solutions for each member taking into consideration their economic/social context. One thing I have in mind are for instance those agricultural funds that were conceived for a certain type of agriculture (which is not bad in itself) but now are not at all efficiently/rightly distributed across the union because there're still differences between countries. If they find and implement correct measures, intra-immigration/migration will be minimal or in any case not "apocalyptical". (I don't know which term to use, immigration doesn't seem the right term now). In fact Europe will obviously need more immigrants from all over the world.

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But me thinks securing peace is the not the main reason for the existence of the EU as a supranational project.
Absolutely, it's not the main reason.
But we should go back in time when the union was funded and read all the stuff that was written at that time, you'd see that it was one of the reasons.

Last edited by greenmount; 04.12.2014 at 14:51.
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  #234  
Old 04.12.2014, 14:54
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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...and you think "culture" could be preserved behind closed doors, in a formalin jar or something like some sort of specimen in a museum of natural sciences?
Culture is evolving anyway, especially in a globalised world. What next, let's ban the kebap because we need to preserve our sacrosanct chicken sandwich.
The real challange lies in how this decision making process will offer viable solutions for each member taking into consideration their economic/social context. One thing I have in mind are for instance those agricultural funds that were conceived for a certain type of agriculture (which is not bad in itself) but now are not at all efficiently distributed across the union because there're still difference between countries. If they find and implement correct measures, intra-immigration/migration will be minimal or in any case not "apocalyptical". In fact Europe will obviously need more immigrants from all over the world.
Well, for me, the appealing aspect of Europe has always been its diversity. I like how cultures change every 15 minutes as I drive through its country roads. I left the US because none of that existed. Everything was the same everywhere. I see it all blurring and dissipating here as well.

Now, there are people who are keen to retain theirs. But in this dynamics of integration, that voice is marginalized. In typical discourses in the rest of the world, you sidetrack your opponents to gain political points. It creates vehemence and vitriolic dialogs. In Switzerland, I've grown to appreciate the cooperative nature of the political process. It provides for diversity and unity at the same time. The rest of the 'uncivilized' part of Europe are not well practiced at this, and really very poor at handling diversity. As a result, it radicalizes groups, and those groups will once in a while pop its head up. You will see them from time to time. They are not pretty. And hammering their heads down does not solve it. Ignoring them is really not very democratic and civilized either.

Its the recurring topic of Integration vs. Multiculturalism.
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  #235  
Old 04.12.2014, 15:25
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Well, for me, the appealing aspect of Europe has always been its diversity. I like how cultures change every 15 minutes as I drive through its country roads. I left the US because none of that existed. Everything was the same everywhere. I see it all blurring and dissipating here as well.

Now, there are people who are keen to retain theirs. But in this dynamics of integration, that voice is marginalized. In typical discourses in the rest of the world, you sidetrack your opponents to gain political points. It creates vehemence and vitriolic dialogs. In Switzerland, I've grown to appreciate the cooperative nature of the political process. It provides for diversity and unity at the same time. The rest of the 'uncivilized' part of Europe are not well practiced at this, and really very poor at handling diversity. As a result, it radicalizes groups, and those groups will once in a while pop its head up. You will see them from time to time. They are not pretty. And hammering their heads down does not solve it. Ignoring them is really not very democratic and civilized either.

Its the recurring topic of Integration vs. Multiculturalism.
Multiculturalism, multilingualism, diversity, immigration and integration makes EU very dynamic and never boring. It's just very fact that there exists vast plethora of cultures and believes makes it interesting. However still present problem with integration in some laid back or conservative countries makes it less appealing to live in, just worth experiencing from tourist prospective. However knowing history of past centuries it will be a tough ride to smooth integration. Having said that it's doing good job despite naysayers trying to write the EU off. Recession has taken toll and economic crisis in some southern countries depleting richer ones need to be combat effectively to make them on par.

Given overall picture I find CH the most appealing country to live in for an expat, strategically placed in centre of Europe for travelling, income wise, peace and political stability wise all good.
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  #236  
Old 04.12.2014, 15:25
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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In Switzerland, I've grown to appreciate the cooperative nature of the political process. It provides for diversity and unity at the same time. The rest of the 'uncivilized' part of Europe are not well practiced at this, and really very poor at handling diversity.
It is the result of a long process, read Swiss history. Of course I also appreciate it but Swiss "nature" is no better than human nature and they're here after some struggles.
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  #237  
Old 04.12.2014, 15:37
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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It is the result of a long process, read Swiss history. Of course I also appreciate it but Swiss "nature" is no better than human nature and they're here after some struggles.
The difference is the Swiss identify themselves as Swiss, regardless of which Canton they live in. But do Europeans identify themselves as Europeans? That is ideal and hopeful, but this thread and Cameron's speech in itself proves that really isn't the case, is it?
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  #238  
Old 04.12.2014, 15:45
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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The difference is the Swiss identify themselves as Swiss, regardless of which Canton they live in. But do Europeans identify themselves as Europeans? That is ideal and hopeful, but this thread and Cameron's speech in itself proves that really isn't the case, is it?
Is the purpose of E.U. erasing national identities? I don't think so. We already discussed about economic advantages, stability, peace. Bringing national or cultural identity into discussion is futile, or just sidetracking.

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Well, for me, the appealing aspect of Europe has always been its diversity. I like how cultures change every 15 minutes as I drive through its country roads. I left the US because none of that existed. Everything was the same everywhere. I see it all blurring and dissipating here as well.
.
I don't. I'm happy to live in Switzerland especially because I can easily travel to places that are obviously different.
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Old 04.12.2014, 15:48
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Is the purpose of E.U. erasing national identities? I don't think so. We already discussed about economic advantages, stability, peace. Bringing national or cultural identity into discussion is futile.
I'm pretty sure its not its intended purpose, but is its side effect. It also erodes national sovereignty. So as a citizen of a country, where I have no control over what the government does, and my voice and vote has no effect, I think the natural tendency is for people to disengage and shirk their social responsibilities. We see that is now widespread, no confidence in their politicians and its processes. We saw a lot of that in Spain and Greece recently.

To add an observation, when it does not look like the government is looking after its people, communities start advocating for themselves, sometimes in the form of gangsterism. The mafia in New York City started off as a community policing organization.


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I don't. I'm happy to live in Switzerland especially because I can easily travel to places that are obviously different.
Me too. I kind of like their xenophobia. Buahahahaha

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  #240  
Old 04.12.2014, 16:04
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

This is funny. I assume he speaks perfect English and is just being awkward. The BBC reporter was very polite
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