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  #241  
Old 04.12.2014, 16:10
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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This is funny. I assume he speaks perfect English and is just being awkward. The BBC reporter was very polite
yes, his English is flawless, hence the jab at the reporter about being willing to meet in England over a cup of tea and speak English. in fairness, however, the BBC reporter knew full well that he was attending a German-language press conference (hence the translators) and was being something of a tool for specifically requesting a question and answer in English.
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  #242  
Old 04.12.2014, 16:12
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I'm pretty sure its not its intended purpose, but is its side effect. It also erodes national sovereignty. So as a citizen of a country, where I have no control over what the government does, and my voice and vote has no effect, I think the natural tendency is for people to disengage and shirk their social responsibilities. We see that is now widespread, no confidence in their politicians and its processes. We saw a lot of that in Spain and Greece recently.
How is it a side effect? The European supranational project in all its phases exists for quite some time now and haven't seen the French or German, Dutch or Italian cultures dissipating or are we talking about old traditions now. Besides, they were multi-cultural before the Eastern enlargements, to say that the new arrivals changed the cultures (if indeed they have been dramatically changed) is an utter lie and sidetracking to gain political points.

And btw, Spanish and Greek discomfort with their politicians is similar to British discomfort.
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  #243  
Old 04.12.2014, 16:16
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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How is it a side effect? The European supranational project in all its phases exists for quite some time now and haven't seen the French or German, Dutch or Italian cultures dissipating or are we talking about old traditions now. Besides, they were multi-cultural before the enlargements, to say that the new arrivals changed the culture (if indeed it has been dramatically changed) is an utter lie and sidetracking to gain political points.
Of course you wouldn't hear it, because you drown out what you consider the extreme right wing groups, right? Because they are not valid citizens?

Notice the insistence of Westerwelle to speak german.

Wait, I'm running out of posts.

Nothing to do with Eastern enlargement, per se. Stop playing that violin soundtrack!

Last edited by Phos; 04.12.2014 at 16:29.
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  #244  
Old 04.12.2014, 16:20
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Of course you wouldn't here it, because you drown out what you consider the extreme right wing groups, right? Because they are not valid citizens?

Notice the insistence of Westerwelle to speak german.

Wait, I'm running out of posts.
That doesn't answer my question.

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Wait, I'm running out of posts.
...and of ideas, if I may say so without being impolite.

Anyways, as I said E.U. has its opposers but all these discussions in the UK to gain political points are disappointing and ugly, antagonise people and will bring nothing good. UK should be free to vote out of the union and if they'll be allowed to get away with their agenda will be very unfair to everyone.
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  #245  
Old 04.12.2014, 16:22
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Really? the 'Directive on services in the Internal Market', with an implementation date of the 28th of Dec 2009, would seem to suggest otherwise!

Try to start car trucking across borders, or buses, or...
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  #246  
Old 04.12.2014, 16:27
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

I'm still struggling to understand the concept that the EC/ EU was set up to ensure peace in Europe.
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  #247  
Old 04.12.2014, 16:33
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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...and of ideas, if I may say so without being impolite.
But that never happens. I don't think I said anything about Eastern expansion. Are you being too serious and taking the whole thing personally again?


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I'm still struggling to understand the concept that the EC/ EU was set up to ensure peace in Europe.
Why was the EU founded?
A frenchman's brain fart.
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  #248  
Old 04.12.2014, 16:35
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Why was the EU founded?
A frenchman's brain fart.
Haha yes. Thanks
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  #249  
Old 04.12.2014, 16:37
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I'm still struggling to understand the concept that the EC/ EU was set up to ensure peace in Europe.
Agree, what I read is the idea of free movement of goods and people. The peace is a mask, if not a discursive idea in order to get the consent from the Europeans, me thinks.
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  #250  
Old 04.12.2014, 16:43
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

It's been called Peace through Economics. A more destructive application of the concept was the Morgenthau plan, but that was scrapped and never came to fruition.
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  #251  
Old 04.12.2014, 16:53
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Agree, what I read is the idea of free movement of goods and people. The peace is a mask, if not a discursive idea in order to get the consent from the Europeans, me thinks.
European Union is only the last stage of a supranational project that started more than half a century ago. And yes, at the beginning the idea was of cooperation instead of making wars.
Now it's only an effect, I would say, and not a goal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

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After World War II, moves towards European integration were seen by many as an escape from the extreme forms of nationalism that had devastated the continent.[27] The 1948 Hague Congress was a pivotal moment in European federal history, as it led to the creation of the European Movement International and also of the College of Europe, a place where Europe's future leaders would live and study together.[28] 1952 saw the creation of the European Coal and Steel Community, which was declared to be "a first step in the federation of Europe", starting with the aim of eliminating the possibility of further wars between its member states by means of pooling the national heavy industries.[29] The founding members of the Community were Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and West Germany. The originators and supporters of the Community include Alcide De Gasperi, Jean Monnet, Robert Schuman, and Paul-Henri Spaak.[30]

The continental territories of the member states of the European Union (European Communities pre-1993), coloured in order of accession.
In 1957, the six countries signed the Treaty of Rome, which extended the earlier co-operation within the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and created the European Economic Community (EEC), establishing a customs union. They also signed another treaty on the same day creating the European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom) for co-operation in developing nuclear energy. Both treaties came into force in 1958.[30]
The EEC and Euratom were created separately from ECSC, although they shared the same courts and the Common Assembly. The executives of the new communities were called Commissions, as opposed to the "High Authority". The EEC was headed by Walter Hallstein (Hallstein Commission) and Euratom was headed by Louis Armand (Armand Commission) and then Étienne Hirsch. Euratom would integrate sectors in nuclear energy while the EEC would develop a customs union between members.[31][32]
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  #252  
Old 04.12.2014, 18:44
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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European Union is only the last stage of a supranational project that started more than half a century ago. And yes, at the beginning the idea was of cooperation instead of making wars.
Now it's only an effect, I would say, and not a goal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union
if we all end up one big superstate, there won't be any Ducks left. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ven-ducks.html

Now tell me it's not serious.
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  #253  
Old 04.12.2014, 19:33
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Now tell me it's not serious.
Yeah, right. Same way as we see no cats in Switzerland because of the Italian seasonal workers of the '50s/'60s.

Btw, I'm dying to find out how many Brits on benefits for generations would pick fruits or something like this.
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  #254  
Old 04.12.2014, 20:23
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I'm still struggling to understand the concept that the EC/ EU was set up to ensure peace in Europe.
Surely you must have covered this in school: European Coal and Steel Community.
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  #255  
Old 04.12.2014, 20:53
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Surely you must have covered this in school: European Coal and Steel Community.
cutting,

Thanks for the link but I didn't go to EU dogma school. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a duck. Capitalism.
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  #256  
Old 04.12.2014, 21:41
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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cutting,

Thanks for the link but I didn't go to EU dogma school. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a duck. Capitalism.
Yes, that's why people should be happy to find available workforce for their companies and that E.U. has indeed opened up lots of investment opportunities. I don't see where the problem is, there are risks, good parts and negative effects for everyone, not only for a few selected countries.
If they decide the whole idea is bad they should be given the chance to vote out, if they want to stay they should be treated and treat others equally, fairly (maybe that's the idea that appals the Brits?). Giving all citizens equal opportunities, not creating an apartheid.
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  #257  
Old 04.12.2014, 21:46
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Yes, that's why people should be happy to find available workforce for their companies and that E.U. has indeed opened up lots of investment opportunities. I don't see where the problem is, there are risks, good parts and negative effects for everyone, not only for a few selected countries.
If they decide the whole idea is bad they should be given the chance to vote out, if they want to stay they should be treated and treat others equally, fairly. Giving all citizens equal opportunities, not creating an apartheid.
Members can opt out anytime they want. The EU is still in its early stages. There will be push and pull on issues of autonomy. At the moment, the organization itself stands firm on resistance. When issues start to pressure multiple members, and there are some substantial consensus on resolution on those issues, you will see revisions. Its a natural for a democratic process, if EU is one. The EU is modelled partially after Switzerland, with aspirations to be like the US. Hopefully, minus the gun violence.

By the way, I am not sure the EU concerns itself with citizen rights. I believe they operate on the national level, and expect citizen rights to be managed by each state.
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  #258  
Old 04.12.2014, 21:49
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Members can opt out anytime they want. The EU is still in its early stages. There will be push and pull on issues of autonomy. At the moment, the organization itself stands firm on resistance. When issues start to pressure multiple members, and there are some substantial consensus on resolution on those issues, you will see revisions. Its a natural for a democratic process, if EU is one.

By the way, I am not sure the EU concerns itself with citizen rights. I believe they operate on the national level, and expect citizen rights to be managed by each state.
I hope I will see revisions we all need.
And if they think they don't need the Eastern part they should make it clear because no-one will agree to be a second class citizen.
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  #259  
Old 04.12.2014, 21:53
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I hope I will see revisions we all need.
And if they think they don't need the Eastern part they should make it clear because no-one will agree to be a second class citizen.
Yeah, I don't take such assumptions lightly. But there is two parts to that, and the important part is whether or not you accept it. Learn the law, expect your rights, and don't let them see you sweat. The key is self-confidence.
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  #260  
Old 05.12.2014, 00:26
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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cutting,

Thanks for the link but I didn't go to EU dogma school. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a duck. Capitalism.
Well if a group of capitalist countries form a union there is more than a fair chance the outcome will be a capitalist approach! But capitalism is not the answer to your question, no matter how much you'd like it to be!

At the time it was felt and rightly as it turned out, that the best way to prevent a future war was to place the materials of war at the time, coal and steel, under the joint control of all the nations involved. And this experience proved the catalyst for the EU of today.
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