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  #41  
Old 30.11.2014, 21:35
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Whether that's a bad thing, is another question.
It is a bad thing. Why does Britain need foreigners with no historical links to the country? We already had perfectly adequate sources of immigrant labour without opening the doors to every sausage eating chancer from the continent. We've got nothing in common with them. They bring nothing of cultural value.

Why can't they go and work in Russia?

We should never have turned our backs on our brothers and cousins in the Commonwealth. The whole European adventure has been an unmitigated disaster.
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  #42  
Old 30.11.2014, 21:43
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

It is all silly political theatrics, and a gaff resulting from it. Cameron merely wanted to appear like he was doing something, yet then acknowledges he can't do it, but the EU can. But he doesn't really mean it. He just wanted to appear like he meant it. In the meantime, he offends Eastern Europeans. But that is alright by him, because they can't vote anyway.
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Old 30.11.2014, 21:46
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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It is a bad thing. Why does Britain need foreigners with no historical links to the country? We already had perfectly adequate sources of immigrant labour without opening the doors to every sausage eating chancer from the continent. We've got nothing in common with them. They bring nothing of cultural value.

Why can't they go and work in Russia?

We should never have turned our backs on our brothers and cousins in the Commonwealth. The whole European adventure has been an unmitigated disaster.
Wow - on that level- I'd love to know what 'cultural value' Brits and 'Mericans bring to Switzerland (if we are flying THAT low).
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  #44  
Old 30.11.2014, 21:57
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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It has economic relevance for the UK. However most importantly it has economic relevance for the rest of the eu. Britain is currently it's most successful economy. How many britians emigrated from the UK to Romania this year ? The thing is with Britain being so successful, it gets a net influx of migrants. Whether that's a bad thing, is another question.
As I said, E.U. is a much more complex construction that apparently is very little understood by the the larger public. It's more than an exchange of immigrants. Simply put: huge profits that wouldn't be possible with let's say "natural" economic restrictions that were dissolved only because of the existence of an economic union are being made as we speak, a union with all its aspects of freedom of movement of capital (in its varied forms), trade, labour etc., so these profits that are made by U.K. companies in various places of E.U. are repatriated to U.K. (or wherever else, as a matter of fact). And, in simpler words, many industries and local producers are at a huge disadvantage when confronted with the biggest and strongest competition within E.U. (price policy etc things they can afford) simply because there aren't any measures of protectionism, which any other country outside of it has.

Speaking of immigrants, the idea of freedom of labour was to balance the offer and demand. I.e. - in U.K. there's still a shortage of medical staff that it's partially compensated for by medics, nurses from Romania and other countries, of course. (but the number of medical Romanian staff is huge, honestly, same in Germany or France, it's an "exodus") Of course, there's also the low skilled workforce, for instance if there're no Brits wanting to work hard on construction sites or to pick fruits, clean houses, babysit, etc. it could be compensated for by people who are willing (or forced by life) to do these jobs. Now, I don't expect any Brit to do this kind of jobs in my country, but the British expats in Eastern Europe are quite a group now and it will be bigger and bigger if investments are done.
As we speak, you'll see Spanish, Italian, Dutch or German "farmers" (entrepreneurs) back home, because they have access to capital and receive E.U. agricultural funds that are not yet available to the locals.
I can go on and on about the benefits of being a member in this union even for the "rich"-er countries, but apparently lots of people made up their mind. It's futile. Those who knew and understood, already took advantage of opportunities. Exactly what some Eastern Europeans try to do now, at a much more modest scale.
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  #45  
Old 30.11.2014, 21:57
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

I want to change my user name to 'SausageEatingChancer'

Mods????!!!!!
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  #46  
Old 30.11.2014, 22:00
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

Brits eat a heck of a lot of sausages, that is for sure (too much saw dust though)... the local butcher's were really nice last week though

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  #47  
Old 30.11.2014, 22:05
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I think the E.U had a pretty clear message for U.K. Freedom of labour movement is one of the fundamental principles of E.U., and they will stay the same. For every member state. There will be no second class citizens, or there will be no united Europe.
You have misunderstood the proposal.

In Cameron's recent speech, there is no proposal to limit EU immigration, for the reasons you state -- this is EU law.

What is proposed is a restriction on benefits until a certain period has been worked in the UK (similar to how it works in other EU countries), and a restriction on the ability for EU workers in the UK to claim benefits for families and children who are resident in other countries, as UK Child Allowance equates to a substantial sum in places like Romania and Lithuania etc, and therefore the system is open to abuse.

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Btw, didn't Ukip start to say the biggest immigration comes from Commonwealth, recently? What's the truth?
It doesn't matter what UKIP "started to say" about anything. Let's leave them out of this. The stats are that last year for instance, 560,000 settled in the UK. The net immigration figure was about 250,000. In the past 18 years, the annual net figure has ranged between 150K and 250K net immigration every year. Last year, very roughly half of that was EU and half non-EU. I don't know what proportion of the non-EU was from the old Commonwealth countries.

Please understand that very few people in the UK are against immigration. The NHS would collapse without immigrants. I'm the son of immigrants myself. The problem is not immigration but uncontrollable immigration.

It may well be an EU principle to allow freedom of movement for people, but like virtually every sacred EU principle, the people of the EU have never voted on it. In the UK, we had a referendum in 1975, when the EU was a relatively small number of wealthy Western European nations, roughly equivalent in GDP, unemployment, salaries etc. We have not been allowed to express an opinion on continued membership of the club for nearly 40 years, despite the organisation being totally turned on its head in that period.

As for "second class citizens", unfortunately many UK nationals are now regarding themselves as second class citizens because wages have become chronically, permanently depressed by the arrival of people willing to work for the minimum wage. No one will complain about wages because there are always more people willing to work for sums which are small in the UK but relatively large in their home countries -- particularly when housing subsidies and family allowances are paid. This is what Cameron and others are wrestling with at the moment.
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  #48  
Old 30.11.2014, 22:07
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I don't think we're all equal. Pakistani and Indian immigrants have much more in common with indigenous Brits than any continental Europeans, eastern or western.

The notion that an immigrant from Bulgaria or Poland has the same links with Britain that a Bangladeshi or Jamaican has is laughable.

Interesting.
I thought Europe (not EU) has shared millennia of cultural and political development, while Brits and their (former) colonies had more of, exactly, colonial exploitation relationship.
But, I must admit, the UK ambivalence towards their own poor and destitute is striking for a north-western Europe - to see a mobile home park and a social housing project was really a lesson learned. Maybe that's the heritage you were boasting about.

And, BTW, Russia is not Europe, and its culture and political system is shaped very differently. Soviet communism was just a symptom of that, and not a cause.
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  #49  
Old 30.11.2014, 22:08
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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....... because it would require treaty changes resulting in referenda in several countries (Denmark, France and Ireland at least, there may be more)
And not just one referendum per country. Remember that we have to keep holding them until the right result emerges.
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Old 30.11.2014, 22:08
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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You have misunderstood the proposal.

In Cameron's recent speech, there is no proposal to limit EU immigration, for the reasons you state -- this is EU law.

What is proposed is a restriction on benefits until a certain period has been worked in the UK (similar to how it works in other EU countries), and a restriction on the ability for EU workers in the UK to claim benefits for families and children who are resident in other countries, as UK Child Allowance equates to a substantial sum in places like Romania and Lithuania etc, and therefore the system is open to abuse.



It doesn't matter what UKIP "started to say" about anything. Let's leave them out of this. The stats are that last year for instance, 560,000 settled in the UK. The net immigration figure was about 250,000. In the past 18 years, the annual net figure has ranged between 150K and 250K net immigration every year. Last year, very roughly half of that was EU and half non-EU. I don't know what proportion of the non-EU was from the old Commonwealth countries.

Please understand that very few people in the UK are against immigration. The NHS would collapse without immigrants. I'm the son of immigrants myself. The problem is not immigration but uncontrollable immigration.

It may well be an EU principle to allow freedom of movement for people, but like virtually every sacred EU principle, the people of the EU have never voted on it. In the UK, we had a referendum in 1975, when the EU was a relatively small number of wealthy Western European nations, roughly equivalent in GDP, unemployment, salaries etc. We have not been allowed to express an opinion on continued membership of the club for nearly 40 years, despite the organisation being totally turned on its head in that period.

As for "second class citizens", unfortunately many UK nationals are now regarding themselves as second class citizens because wages have become chronically, permanently depressed by the arrival of people willing to work for the minimum wage. No one will complain about wages because there are always more people willing to work for sums which are small in the UK but relatively large in their home countries -- particularly when housing subsidies and family allowances are paid. This is what Cameron and others are wrestling with at the moment.
Thank you for your opinions.
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Old 30.11.2014, 22:17
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Can't stop laughing at that. Eastern Europeans will change the culture, not immigrants from places by far more distant culturally... As I said, unlike other posters who forgot where they came from, I think all people are equal. But if truth has to be said, I won't be shy.
Then respond to this. That certain celebrated parts of London, like Park Lane, have become 'home' for large numbers of Romanian gypsies living (and sh1tting) on the streets. The British people, and normal tourists, don't like it.

Can you understand this?

And Park Lane is just the high profile example. There are plenty of other problem areas around the UK, particularly Sheffield and Manchester.
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  #52  
Old 30.11.2014, 22:19
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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, so these profits that are made by U.K. companies in various places of E.U. are repatriated to U.K. (or wherever else, as a matter of fact).
I believe that profit is taxed at the country it was made in, not the UK. It may or may not ever be taxed in the UK. This is really the arena Cameroon is mostly interested in. I doubt he's truly overly concerned with finances for social services. He may not truly mind if social services is bankrupted. He would really rather cut more taxes than to keep feeding social services.

The story here is really about taxes, not immigration.
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  #53  
Old 30.11.2014, 22:33
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I don't think we're all equal. Pakistani and Indian immigrants have much more in common with indigenous Brits than any continental Europeans, eastern or western.

The notion that an immigrant from Bulgaria or Poland has the same links with Britain that a Bangladeshi or Jamaican has is laughable.
That's very insightful.

For no very logical reason, Indians, West Indians and Brits are extraordinarily compatible. Maybe it's just an accident of Commonwealth history but it certainly seems like something deeper than that. Despite the apparent diversity of their culture, geography, climate, economy, etc., Brits and Indians seem to have a natural compatibility that I can't achieve with Germans or the French (say) without quite a lot of groundwork.
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Old 30.11.2014, 22:34
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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...As for "second class citizens", unfortunately many UK nationals are now regarding themselves as second class citizens because wages have become chronically, permanently depressed by the arrival of people willing to work for the minimum wage. No one will complain about wages because there are always more people willing to work for sums which are small in the UK but relatively large in their home countries -- particularly when housing subsidies and family allowances are paid. This is what Cameron and others are wrestling with at the moment.
But isn't it a normal consequence in the short and middle-terms considering that the EU is a supranational project? I mean, of course, a huge influx of immigrants from the member countries with weaker economy is foreseen to flow into the member countries with larger economy, which will bring down wages in the latter. But then in the longer term, everything will be equalised as shortages of labour in the EU countries with weaker economy will expectedly raise wage level.
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Old 30.11.2014, 22:38
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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As for "second class citizens", unfortunately many UK nationals are now regarding themselves as second class citizens because wages have become chronically, permanently depressed by the arrival of people willing to work for the minimum wage. No one will complain about wages because there are always more people willing to work for sums which are small in the UK but relatively large in their home countries -- particularly when housing subsidies and family allowances are paid. This is what Cameron and others are wrestling with at the moment.
And that also applies in Switzerland- with jobs going to foreigners at both ends of the salary spectrum, and with no minimum wage either ... and fiscal arrangements for the very rich (whilst the hard-working Swiss pay their taxes), no?

Last edited by MusicChick; 30.11.2014 at 23:23. Reason: fixed quote
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Old 30.11.2014, 22:39
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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But isn't it a normal consequence in the short and middle-terms considering that the EU is a supranational project? I mean, of course, a huge influx of immigrants from the member countries with weaker economy is foreseen to flow into the member countries with larger economy, which will bring down wages in the latter. But then in the longer term, everything will be equalised as shortages of labour in the EU countries with weaker economy will expectedly raise wage level.
No, that won't happen. The gulf is too wide between the scope of the member states to end in a utopia where everyone is equal. Regardless of finances there are cultural differences, levels of corruption etc to name a few blocking points.
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  #57  
Old 30.11.2014, 22:49
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Ehrm, yes. European countries have existed completely ignoring each other.
Anyway, that's not the point.
As I said, E.U. is a project that is not fancied by everyone, and that is fine. I do hope that British people will be given a chance to get out of it, as it clearly has absolutely no relevance to them. It does have relevance for continental Europeans though, given our history.
So I think it's fair to conclude that E.U. has its opponents/enemies from within and from outside, and that's O.K.. We shouldn't agree upon everything.

You need to be very careful when making assumptions about what "British people" think. There is indeed plenty of cynicism about the EU 'project', just as there is in France, Spain, Italy, Greece and elsewhere. But be aware that there are very many EU supporters in the UK too. If there was an in-out referendum tomorrow, I actually believe the decision would be to stay in, though it would be close.

To explain the attitude of the anti-s, you have to be aware that when we voted on membership in 1975, the proposal put forward was that this was to be a "common market" where nothing much would change except we would all be allowed to trade with each other without quotas and tariffs. Additionally, we could travel across borders without having to show passports or apply for visas. Heck yeah, it all sounded pretty reasonable back then. Why not?

It was only later that the problems began, when ideologues started talking about Federalism and a common defence policy and a common currency -- and opened up the EU to a host of ex-Soviet slave states with ruined economies.
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Old 30.11.2014, 23:01
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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And that also applies in Switzerland- with jobs going to foreigners at both ends of the salary spectrum, and with no minimum wage either ... and fiscal arrangements for the very rich (whilst the hard-working Swiss pay their taxes), no?
But we have to have employment arranged before we arrive. EU citizens, I believe, are not allowed to move to Switzerland and then start looking for a job.

And I thought that jobs were offered only if there was no one local to do it?

In fact, the way that the Swiss handle immigration is often highlighted by UKIP etc as an example of how an immigration policy should work.
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Old 30.11.2014, 23:06
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

All these Poles who are such a threat to the UK economy should go on strike and stay at home for one day. You will see how this beautiful country will work NOT.

Saddening and disappointing but I am not surprised.
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Old 30.11.2014, 23:20
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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But isn't it a normal consequence in the short and middle-terms considering that the EU is a supranational project? I mean, of course, a huge influx of immigrants from the member countries with weaker economy is foreseen to flow into the member countries with larger economy, which will bring down wages in the latter. But then in the longer term, everything will be equalised as shortages of labour in the EU countries with weaker economy will expectedly raise wage level.
The main mechanism used by the EU is upgrading the economies by transferring huge amounts of investments in new member states. As an example, in 2012 the baltic countries (Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania) and Portugal received 400-500 euros per year per habitant...whereas Romania received only 111 euros. Why is that?
The main reasons are corruption, bureaucracy, lack of skilled resources, collapsing infrastructure that led the EU to suspend several times the transfer of money to Romania (last time was in March-April 2014). Several development projects are blocked because of funds misuse. The romanian state is too weak and too corrupt to fight the organized crime & corruption (EU human trafficking involves in 85% of the cases bulgarian or romanian nationals).

Among the 20 top most profitable companies in Romania, 15 are owned by western european companies. They do bring modern management and production culture to upgrade the existing manufacturing tools.

I do fear that misplaced pride does bring a distorted view of the economical and social realities of this country.

The comparison of EU vs non-EU immigration in the UK is off-topic in this thread: of different nature and very different rules and historical background are involved here (non-EU is mainly illegal immigration whereas EU immigration is based on EU freedom of movement laws).
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