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  #61  
Old 30.11.2014, 23:30
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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But we have to have employment arranged before we arrive. EU citizens, I believe, are not allowed to move to Switzerland and then start looking for a job.

And I thought that jobs were offered only if there was no one local to do it?.
N. 1 = no
N. 2 = joke

These rules did apply, t'other way round, when I first went to work in London in 1970 (as assistant translator/trilingual PA for Beecham's).
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  #62  
Old 30.11.2014, 23:37
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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But we have to have employment arranged before we arrive. EU citizens, I believe, are not allowed to move to Switzerland and then start looking for a job.

And I thought that jobs were offered only if there was no one local to do it?

In fact, the way that the Swiss handle immigration is often highlighted by UKIP etc as an example of how an immigration policy should work.
Maybe you want to look at this for a more up to date interpretation of the rules regarding EU citizens in Switzerland. https://www.ch.ch/en/working-switzerland-eu-efta/
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  #63  
Old 30.11.2014, 23:42
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Maybe you want to look at this for a more up to date interpretation of the rules regarding EU citizens in Switzerland. https://www.ch.ch/en/working-switzerland-eu-efta/
And what is ironic is it has written in that doc 'if you apply for welfare benefits you lose your right to stay in Switzerland'.
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  #64  
Old 30.11.2014, 23:46
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

Well, that does not always apply. However Cameron is planning to stop all benefits for migrants to UK who have not contributed in taxes for 4 years. Germans already apply a similar rule rule too.

Tit for tat on EF is not helpful, really- but the idea that CH is particularly tough on migrants does not help either. Ecopop were clearly defeated today.
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  #65  
Old 30.11.2014, 23:56
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

Maybe I wear tinted glasses but what's the problem with curbing immigration in any country in the world if there are free loaders and party moochers to get on the bus for free ride. Contribute and stay, do not contribute and free to go. Pay taxes and claim benefits. What's the problem?
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  #66  
Old 30.11.2014, 23:58
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Regardless of finances there are cultural differences, levels of corruption etc to name a few blocking points.
And yet, there has been huge measurable progress re. justice, corruption control etc. And this is the purpose, making better, functional, free, democratic states.
Mentalities are shaped by circumstances, so as long as the new democracies are committed to developing and re-shaping societies, it will function.
Prior to communism, which was the main deterrent to true development in Eastern Europe, there was a remarcable progress in all these societies. A war has been lost and we all payed the consequences (human loss, financial, material, ideological).

Even so, the education system has always been connected to the West (except from economic sciences of course), not much was lost on this front. Literature, Art, even philosophy, were not lost. Do you want to know how many Eastern European authors have been remarkably successful in the West? One can talk about a rupture in mentality and aspirations only when one is completely ignorant. Chances are high if one comes from a totally different cultural space, those are excused.

Now, back to the hot theme, immigration. It is a recurrent one in the political debate, only the targets are different. In a way I personally pity a/the "politician", especially when he's also an intellectual, because of the schizophrenie he is forced to live in. On one hand you have to shape your political discourse according to "out of the bile", visceral ideas that are easily entering the public psyche so you can...alas, win the power, on the other hand you have to comply with reality, facts, common sense, social strata, demographics, international agreements, alliances.
It's not easy.

Fortunately, all these things are being discussed on a higher level, between intellectuals, civil society, politicians, research institutions. It might come as a surprise to some EFers, but politics is not being shaped here.
I often enjoy lively debates, even though when they are on some sort of agendas.
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  #67  
Old 01.12.2014, 00:01
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Wow - on that level- I'd love to know what 'cultural value' Brits and 'Mericans bring to Switzerland (if we are flying THAT low).
Switzerland could not possibly care less about British or American individuals, it is the billions upon billions of tax revenue and corporate investment spending that comes along with them that it cares about, i.e. Switzerland needs the companies that employ those individuals. this makes Switzerland, just like Luxembourg and Liechtenstein, a totally different case when it comes to "immigration".
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  #68  
Old 01.12.2014, 00:14
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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And what is ironic is it has written in that doc 'if you apply for welfare benefits you lose your right to stay in Switzerland'.
it's like the welcome plates for towns in the far west: " stranger we have everything to welcome you: a hotel, a prison, a saloon, a cemetery"
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  #69  
Old 01.12.2014, 00:15
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I want to change my user name to 'SausageEatingChancer'

Mods????!!!!!
Wrong thread.

Greenmount - promoting your home culture is difficult when people here are deliberately talking about completely different representants. Personally, quotas won't change the situation. Quality investments in poorer EU regions will, probably not directly financial ones, given the level of corruption.
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Old 01.12.2014, 00:22
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Wrong thread.

Greenmount - promoting your home culture is difficult when people here are talking about completely different representants. Personally, quotas won't change the situation. Quality investments in poorer EU regions will, probably not directly financial ones, given the level of corruption.
That's uncalled for, really, I'm not promoting my home culture at all, I am giving my honest and quite informed, I dare to say, opinions re. immigration from my country and other Eastern European countries as good as I know them. Unfortunately I can't talk about Czech or Latvian immigration more because I'm not in possession of much info. I can relate to Poles, Bulgarians for instance.
I stayed on the subject and thus I think you're totally unfair. Frankly I think you haven't read my posts here.
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  #71  
Old 01.12.2014, 00:28
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

Vertigo is right about corporations reaping benefits while the rest bearing the costs. Be it transferring plants (great example was a tea packaging company Twinings which took a EU development grant to build a facility in Poland and then closed one in UK), be it cheap labour - same like SVP here which sells populist propaganda to its rural voters while caters to big business with its economically liberal agenda.
When Poland joined EU about 10years ago then UK and Ireland were the only two countries which opened their employment markets fully, while Germany waited until recently. Add to this highly appreciated GBP at that time and a pre-2008 housing bubbles which could make use of immigrant workers. While west Poland traditionally worked (illegally) in construction and farms in Germany, the opportunity to work legally was really a new thing. However, already the times were changing - many educated office rats were paid well enough to rather stay as the cost of living is way lower.
But the jobless or underemployed or in depressed areas left in large numbers. However, from my anecdotal experience, these were quite motivated people - not with a plan to live off social money. Not that we haven't heard sad stories of people landing homeless and broke.
All this mass migration creates various problems in the countries of origin as well - young people who could work and pay taxes, families living apart, kids staying with their grandparents because parents are working poors abroad...
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  #72  
Old 01.12.2014, 00:31
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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That's uncalled for, really, I'm not promoting my home culture at all, I am giving my honest and quite informed, I dare to say, opinions re. immigration from my country and other Eastern European countries as good as I know them. Unfortunately I can't talk about Czech or Latvian immigration more because I'm not in possession of much info. I can relate to Poles, Bulgarians for instance.
I stayed on the subject and thus I think you're totally unfair. Frankly I think you haven't read my posts here.
I think you read but misunderstood MC's post. She was not unfair to you. Her "wrong thread" was for MidfieldGeneral. Btw it's a recurrent pattern.
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  #73  
Old 01.12.2014, 00:32
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Vertigo is right about corporations reaping benefits while the rest bearing the costs. Be it transferring plants (great example was a tea packaging company Twinings which took a EU development grant to build a facility in Poland and then closed one in UK), be it cheap labour - same like SVP here which sells populist propaganda to its rural voters while caters to big business with its economically liberal agenda.
When Poland joined EU about 10years ago then UK and Ireland were the only two countries which opened their employment markets fully, while Germany waited until recently. Add to this highly appreciated GBP at that time and a pre-2008 housing bubbles which could make use of immigrant workers. While west Poland traditionally worked (illegally) in construction and farms in Germany, the opportunity to work legally was really a new thing. However, already the times were changing - many educated office rats were paid well enough to rather stay as the cost of living is way lower.
But the jobless or underemployed or in depressed areas left in large numbers. However, from my anecdotal experience, these were quite motivated people - not with a plan to live off social money. Not that we haven't heard sad stories of people landing homeless and broke.
All this mass migration creates various problems in the countries of origin as well - young people who could work and pay taxes, families living apart, kids staying with their grandparents because parents are working poors abroad...
An excellent comment, really.

P.S. "Mr. Vertigo", I might have not understood MC's line but somehow it seemed a poor choice of words from MC's part. Knowing her I'm sure it was unintentional. Rest assured, I really like MC, even when I don't agree with her. And that happens, but it happens very rarely.

Last edited by greenmount; 01.12.2014 at 00:48.
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  #74  
Old 01.12.2014, 00:45
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I think you read but misunderstood MC's post. She was not unfair to you. Her "wrong thread" was for MidfieldGeneral.
Oh yeah, I was sending him to the terrible joke thread.

I was actually being supportive to GM, acknowledging that it is hard to make people not just simply stereotype about certain immigrants, it was obvious she was giving an insight from home reality while others were clearly talking about a reality that shows on their doorsteps which seems to be quite different.Those are 2 different things, why even mix it. Again, I think quotas won't fix it profoundly. Anti corruption measures could, but then again can EU administer those efficiently? Impose them? Under what pretext? It's cheaper and faster to lock the door, unfortunately.

(As per promoting one's home culture, yes, please. The mix of different ones here is what makes EF interesting. I'd say the same about countries with high number of foreigners in general.)
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  #75  
Old 01.12.2014, 00:55
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Oh yeah, I was sending him to the terrible joke thread.

I was actually being supportive to GM, it was obvious she was giving an insight from home reality while others were clearly talking about what shows on their doorsteps which seems to be quite different.Those are 2 different things, why even mix it. Again, I think quotas won't fix it profoundly. Anti corruption measures could, but then again can EU administer those efficiently? Impose them? It's cheaper and faster to lock the door, unfortunately.
Corruption exists in all the E.U. states unfortunately, levels vary.
I personally think that the stronger the justice system gets, the less corruption we'll have. As long as no-one is above the law and everybody knows that, things will gradually change.
It's unfortunate that many simple immigrants (simple in terms of political power) are choosing to immigrate especially because of this aspect. They want a strong civil society where the politician should report to the electorate, democracy and equality and hope to find it somewhere else. They don't have enough patience to wait the necessary, realistically expected time for things to totally change. And yet, things were/are not that bad and still improving.
What some people refuse to understand is the fact that people have immense expectations. If you told to a Westerner he would laugh at you and say that's the same everywhere.
And of course I can see the other version or what the other side seems to see at their doorstep, I'm sorry I couldn't pass this message, even though I tried. But media or other sources are full of these versions, whereas "our" version is almost never heard. I decided to focus on this side, I think it's understandable. It's anyway rarely heard, I don't think it should bother anyone unless they want to have a monologue.

Last edited by greenmount; 01.12.2014 at 01:36.
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Old 01.12.2014, 01:35
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Corruption exists in all the E.U. states unfortunately, levels vary.
I personally think that the stronger the justice system gets, the less corruption we'll have. As long as no-one is above the law and everybody knows that, things will gradually change.
It's unfortunate that many simple immigrants (simple in terms of political power) are choosing to immigrate especially because of this aspect. They want a strong civil society where the politician should report to the electorate, democracy and equality and hope to find it somewhere else. They don't have enough patience to wait the necessary, realistically expected time for things to totally change. And yet, things were/are not that bad and still improving.
What some people refuse to understand is the fact that people have immense expectations. If you told to a Westerner he would laugh at you and say that's the same everywhere.
I think you are referring to a society that has had an unhealthy amount of expectations from the state and its politicians to fix their personal problems for them. Clearly from a socialist perspective. Whereas conservatives strains of people have foregone placing their hopes and faith in governments and see them more as a hindrance than a help to their well-being.

I think this is why you see racism in UK comservative politics shift from skin color to economic disposition; from Indians, who are now lauded for their value, and their booming economy at home; over to Eastern Europeans, the welfare recipients.

I don't think corruption is the most detrimental factor here. Corruption exists everywhere. I think the determining factor is the transformational capabilities of that society. Innovation and motivation is key here. India has demonstrated it, Eastern Europe has not fully.
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Old 01.12.2014, 01:51
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I think you are referring to a society that has had an unhealthy amount of expectations from the state and its politicians to fix their personal problems for them. Clearly from a socialist perspective. Whereas conservatives strains of people have foregone placing their hopes and faith in governments and see them more as a hindrance than a help to their well-being.

.

Absolutely not, I was obviously referring to corruption, absolute equality of chances. Please don't put words in my mouth.
For instance, people are trying to open small or medium sized businesses and they are often obstructed/discouraged by bureaucracy and often associated corruption or heavy taxation, or what not.. No, they don't expect anyone to save them, they want that the state should have a minimal interference with their business. For instance.

If I still didn't make myself understood enough, they only want the government to create a fair, corruption less, transparent (business) environment. They want that public funds or in other words their taxes should always go where they're supposed to go - health care, education, infrastructure, etc.

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I think this is why you see racism in UK comservative politics shift from skin color to economic disposition.
Absolutely not, it's your own projection. I personally fully support people who want to immigrate/migrate for a job, business, studies etc. They shouldn't be discriminated because of their origins, that's all. As it clearly happens now.

Last edited by greenmount; 01.12.2014 at 02:24.
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  #78  
Old 01.12.2014, 02:26
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

same thing. Welfare and free social services can be so debilitating for people and societies in ways not readily realized. It is a small leap from getting something for nothing, to losing touch with value. When these are institutionalized, it pulls people towards poverty.
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Old 01.12.2014, 02:29
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Absolutely not, it's your own projection. I personally fully support people who want to immigrate/migrate for a job, business, studies etc. They shouldn't be discriminated because of their origins, that's all. As it clearly happens now.
Not my projection. Cameron's speech from a year ago applauded Indians and their contributing values, and then chastised Eastern European welfare recipients.
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Old 01.12.2014, 02:29
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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same thing. Welfare and free social services can be so debilitating for people and societies in ways not readily realized. It is a small leap from getting something for nothing, to losing touch with value. When these are institutionalized, it pulls people towards poverty.
Same things with what? With having a job in the U.K.?
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