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  #101  
Old 01.12.2014, 13:48
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

I hope every Brit on this thread defending Cameron's speech voted/would have voted for all the SVP initiatives and the Ecopop one. Otherwise they would live in a logic conundrum. And they're already booking return flights to escape the place they logically think they don't belong either culturally, or legally, or morally, or due to their languages and habits. The low-income with their kids are just subsided, and take place in the train, the high-income don't integrate and take the best apartments; they aren't from a post-colonial country exploited by Switzerland, and they cannot think their kids would learn yodeling or speak a lingo which isn't written in a consistent form; moreover, all these Eastern Europe immigrants reinforcing the cabbage-eating culture (and sending their child benefits back home, to not overcrowd the schools for the poor locals).
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  #102  
Old 01.12.2014, 13:51
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I hope every Brit on this thread defending Cameron's speech voted/would have voted for all the SVP initiatives and the Ecopop one. Otherwise they would live in a logic conundrum. And they're already booking return flights to escape the place they logically think they don't belong either culturally, or legally, or morally, or due to their languages and habits. The low-income with their kids are just subsided, and take place in the train, the high-income don't integrate and take the best apartments; they aren't from a post-colonial country exploited by Switzerland, and they cannot think their kids would learn yodeling or speak a lingo which isn't written in a consistent form; moreover, all these Eastern Europe immigrants reinforcing the cabbage-eating culture (and sending their child benefits back home, to not overcrowd the schools for the poor locals).
Yes, because the debate is exactly as black and white as this
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  #103  
Old 01.12.2014, 14:00
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I hope every Brit on this thread defending Cameron's speech voted/would have voted for all the SVP initiatives and the Ecopop one. Otherwise they would live in a logic conundrum. And they're already booking return flights to escape the place they logically think they don't belong either culturally, or legally, or morally, or due to their languages and habits. The low-income with their kids are just subsided, and take place in the train, the high-income don't integrate and take the best apartments; they aren't from a post-colonial country exploited by Switzerland, and they cannot think their kids would learn yodeling or speak a lingo which isn't written in a consistent form; moreover, all these Eastern Europe immigrants reinforcing the cabbage-eating culture (and sending their child benefits back home, to not overcrowd the schools for the poor locals).
In a nutshell, yes. You hit the nail on the head.
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  #104  
Old 01.12.2014, 14:00
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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But they pay taxes, don't they? And their contribution to the whole economy is profiting the companies, and hence more tax revenue as well for the state. Hence, more people, more money coming in, and more money going out. Overall, that depends on how the state is managing its public spending.
Yes and that is where the mismatch is. the state has allowed, without askign its citizens, a large influx of people (relatively speaking) and relied on the Infrastructure to absorb, but they got their calculations wrong by miles and miles. In the intial waves by their own admission, the government never expected so many arrivals and so were unprepared for the additional load on the infrastructure - rather like Switzerland in a way. The people were also uninformed of the impending change so it provided quite a good recipie for the wrong kind of feeling to emerge - people saw waiting lists at Doctors increase in direct correlation to an increase in migrants arriving for example.

The government starts putting the extra money into the infrastructure of course but these things take a long time to come to fruition, which is why there is a strong swell of support in england for a "stop now until this is sorted out" rather than "stop forever" message.

The other point is lazy englanders of course, who should be doing the work themselves. It's one of the most interesting parts of it as this is the area the UK Government got really, drastically wrong. The arriving migrants will work very hard for very low wages, lower than the UK citizens were previously used to. This has led to wage dumping particularly for lower skills which leads to more disullionment for both sides. It's rather like how IT has gone to low cost locations internationally, meaning the job that was in england paying 30k now pays 3k in India. Do you tell the British worker to sharpen up his act and get a one-way to Delhi ? You can't of course, so the result is the local worker feels resentment and disillusionment to the Indian chap, who is simply trying to get on in life and has a good job in his home nation, nothing wrong with that.

I'm not sure where it will all end. I don't think it will end with one superstate with everyone equally paid as I said before, there are too many fundamental differences in how nation states operate and their psychological makup, however something needs to be found that is a friendly middle ground, because as said, the UK needs immigrant labour in its workforce on one hand, but to take the other approach and say to the uk "Dont like Europe, well eff off then" isnt going to work, because the European Project needs its major contributors (of which Britain is one) to sustain itself.
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  #105  
Old 01.12.2014, 14:03
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I hope every Brit on this thread defending Cameron's speech voted/would have voted for all the SVP initiatives and the Ecopop one. Otherwise they would live in a logic conundrum. And they're already booking return flights to escape the place they logically think they don't belong either culturally, or legally, or morally, or due to their languages and habits. The low-income with their kids are just subsided, and take place in the train, the high-income don't integrate and take the best apartments; they aren't from a post-colonial country exploited by Switzerland, and they cannot think their kids would learn yodeling or speak a lingo which isn't written in a consistent form; moreover, all these Eastern Europe immigrants reinforcing the cabbage-eating culture (and sending their child benefits back home, to not overcrowd the schools for the poor locals).
I thought we'd agreed earlier it was sausage eating ?

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  #106  
Old 01.12.2014, 14:29
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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however something needs to be found that is a friendly middle ground, because as said, the UK needs immigrant labour in its workforce on one hand, but to take the other approach and say to the uk "Dont like Europe, well eff off then" isnt going to work, because the European Project needs its major contributors (of which Britain is one) to sustain itself.
Why? There are many valid arguments against E.U. membership, one of which is obviously that the European Project is irrelevant to UK as it could do even better out of it, given the history, cultural context, etc. Yes UK needs immigration but it could be supplied by countries belonging to Commonwealth. (I think even Ukip agrees on this one) This way there won't be cultural frictions within the country, as it has been repeatedly pointed out in this thread.
So, objectively speaking, if one wants to take into consideration all these there isn't much left in favour to the continental European project, DB is right.
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  #107  
Old 01.12.2014, 14:36
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Why? There are many valid arguments against E.U. membership, one of which is obviously that the European Project is irrelevant to UK as it could do even better out of it, given the history, cultural context, etc. Yes UK needs immigration but it could be supplied by countries belonging to Commonwealth. (I think even Ukip agrees on this one) This way there won't be cultural frictions within the country, as it has been repeatedly pointed out in this thread.
So, objectively speaking, if one wants to take into consideration all these there isn't much left in favour to the continental European project, DB is right.
Why do you say the European Project is irrelevent to the UK ? The UK needs skilled labour, which it finds in Europe. Im not sure how it's jumped to all that being available outside europe ? Both need each other, its just the mechanism of sharing needs more control that is the argument.
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  #108  
Old 01.12.2014, 14:42
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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The UK needs skilled labour, which it finds in Europe. Im not sure how it's jumped to all that being available outside europe ?
UK needs skilled and also less skilled labour, but speaking about skilled labour let's be honest it could be found outside Europe - not only India/Pakistan but also Australia, New Zealand etc.

What strikes me most is the fact that one always gets contradictory messages from British politicians. One day they're somehow opposing "multiculturalism", see here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12376304, the next day they insist on a better integration/cooperation within Commonwealth.
I'm usually reading international news and what puzzles me is the lack of consistency. Same could be said about being a member of EU, or agreeing upon accepting new members and then decide it's not good anymore. That's why I strongly believe there should be a way out.
Every country should be free to decide for itself, in or out supranational projects, unions, alliances.

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  #109  
Old 01.12.2014, 16:48
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Why do you say the European Project is irrelevent to the UK ? The UK needs skilled labour, which it finds in Europe. Im not sure how it's jumped to all that being available outside europe ? Both need each other, its just the mechanism of sharing needs more control that is the argument.
And the UK also needs access to the EU single market.
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  #110  
Old 01.12.2014, 17:02
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

Issues around immigration are SO so complex- here or there. One thing is for sure, it is wrong to make it sound like the Swiss are particularly racists or against immigration. Some of them undoubtedly are- and far too many imho. But racism in some sections or society is rife in France, Germany, Spain- and having just spent 2 weeks in the UK- I was shocked to find just how much open and virulent racism there is there too currently- and the popular press is full of it.

When I visited friends in Bulgaria, I was truly shocked at the racism shown to Gipsies there btw.

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  #111  
Old 01.12.2014, 17:29
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

Comparisons between different levels of racism and discrimination are pointless, no matter what country we are talking about. Nor is enough to just simply think "Whatever, could be worse, look at 3rd Reich".

Comparisons divert attention from the fact it's an unhealthy short-cut in thinking, as a whole. And that it is caused by fear. It's understandable. And it's working. Doesn't mean it's healthy or good.

Intelligent government measures should make people fear less and be a bit more risk tolerant so they do not have to resort to unintelligent prejudice. Yes, I do think some need help with that.

By intelligent measures I don't mean quotas.. Reinforce security, infrastructure, ahead of the time it explodes. Send a lot of people abroad to learn. Stimulate apprentisage and exchanges in Erasmus, etc. Expose. Break the insular. Equip new generations by having high demands on them. Increase competitiveness. Boost confidence of people by making instrumentalization accessible and attractive. Increase tolerance and acceptance of merit based career, personal progress. Let newcomers participate in decisions that relate directly to their lives or lives of their kids. People need to mingle more. Not separate more.

I think quality control should come from communities. That also diminishes fear of the unknown. But they should know what they are doing, so certain level of oversight is pragmatic. Who wants to constantly re-invent the wheel just because they are too proud to copy neighbor's success?

Whadup with this Commonwealth nostalgia? Should people crave anachronistic good ol' times. Nothing can be brought back, conditions evolved. I'm really glad regimes restricting liberty got pushed to change.
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  #112  
Old 01.12.2014, 17:32
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Comparisons between different levels of racism and discrimination are pointless, no matter what country we are talking about. Nor is enough to just simply think "Whatever, could be worse, look at 3rd Reich".

Comparisons divert attention from the fact it's an unhealthy short-cut in thinking, as a whole. And that it is caused by fear. It's understandable. And it's working. Doesn't mean it's healthy or good.

Intelligent government measures should make people fear less and be a bit more risk tolerant so they do not have to resort to unintelligent prejudice. Yes, I do think some need help with that.

By intelligent measures I don't mean quotas.. Reinforce security, infrastructure, ahead of the time it explodes. Send a lot of people abroad to learn. Stimulate apprentisage and exchanges in Erasmus, etc. Expose. Break the insular. Equip new generations by having high demands on them. Increase competitiveness. Boost confidence of people by making instrumentalization accessible and attractive. Increase tolerance and acceptance of merit based career, personal progress.
I thought I wouldn't post. I just patiently waited until the thread hits Godwyn.
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  #113  
Old 01.12.2014, 19:12
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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Whadup with this Commonwealth nostalgia? Should people crave anachronistic good ol' times. Nothing can be brought back, conditions evolved. I'm really glad regimes restricting liberty got pushed to change.
It's understandable though. I can understand why some people have it, or feel like having nothing in common with me or you, MC (you get the point, not necessarily us), or any other sausages&cabbage eaters.
I don't know what could be done, preferences are preferences. De gustibus...as they say. If it was in my power I'd release British people, kick all undesirables out, don't know what I'd do with these ones either, but hey, they deserve their place since they weren't born in the right place. Of course I'm kidding and kicking out people who contribute there it's bad, so really no solution for people's desires.

Hey, found it...send'em all to Rusia!

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It is a bad thing. Why does Britain need foreigners with no historical links to the country? We already had perfectly adequate sources of immigrant labour without opening the doors to every sausage eating chancer from the continent. We've got nothing in common with them. They bring nothing of cultural value.

Why can't they go and work in Russia?

We should never have turned our backs on our brothers and cousins in the Commonwealth. The whole European adventure has been an unmitigated disaster.
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  #114  
Old 01.12.2014, 21:18
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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UK needs skilled and also less skilled labour, but speaking about skilled labour let's be honest it could be found outside Europe - not only India/Pakistan but also Australia, New Zealand etc.
But it is not about skilled labour, it is about every citizen of the EU benefiting from the union! For instance companies in the UK gain unrestricted access to a huge market and as result grow their profits and generate additional tax revenue in the UK. In return people in the poorer countries have the right to pursue the opportunities that are opening up in other countries as a result of the union.

If the UK were in a position to fill their labour market with citizens from third countries, restrict the movement of EU nationals and all the while their industry continued to benefit from unrestricted access to the market then that would be unfair and none of the other states are going to accept that situation, especially the states where referenda would have to be held (but I expect it would be vetoed long before it gets to the referendum stage).

One idea that might be acceptable to at least some states would be that countries that want to restrict the free movement of people are taxed for access to the marked and that money would then go into the structural fund. Say the UK would be taxes at 10% of it's exports to the EU and then the structural fund wold be used to encourage investment in the eastern countries via interest free loans to companies who establish operations there that provide local employment, infrastructure projects and so on.
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  #115  
Old 02.12.2014, 01:11
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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One idea that might be acceptable to at least some states would be that countries that want to restrict the free movement of people are taxed for access to the marked and that money would then go into the structural fund. Say the UK would be taxes at 10% of it's exports to the EU and then the structural fund wold be used to encourage investment in the eastern countries via interest free loans to companies who establish operations there that provide local employment, infrastructure projects and so on.
No, as long as it's done from the "centre", all the money get first into a fund upon "E.U." decides on using it, giving the lion's part to some states and leftovers to others is not going to be accepted by anyone, I should hope. Not to mention you'd have the idea of free trade totally compromised anyway.

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But it is not about skilled labour, it is about every citizen of the EU benefiting from the union! For instance companies in the UK gain unrestricted access to a huge market and as result grow their profits and generate additional tax revenue in the UK. In return people in the poorer countries have the right to pursue the opportunities that are opening up in other countries as a result of the union.

.
Yes, I am of the same opinion on this one, even mentioned it somewhere on this thread. Besides, you can't leave some people in the grey area for ever, within a so-called union, where they could be tolerated to work and pay taxes (under some tax emergency codes which means higher taxation, as it often happens) but have no social protection - pension contribution, unemployment insurance, anything.
Why should other people accept this situation when fully know that other members are treated differently.
So yes, E.U. needs discussions. No-one should be forced to stay here or to accept members they don't want (I mean, they don't want them...now?). But let's make it clear and fair for everyone, not only try to follow one country or another's agenda, whereas the weaker parts should only comply with what it's being barked at them from the centre.
So many things that should be improved - education systems, access to information/education/scholarships/apprenticeships/academic cooperation, encouraging entrepreneurship, etc etc and they waste their time trying to single out people, nations, countries. I'm not sure why new members would like to be part of this game, I think we'd also need now to be convinced to stay here. Frankly, I'd personally vote that my country gets out of this mess if I would be given the chance.
I never benefited from anything because of E.U. , if everything being from a member state in the grey area always made things even more difficult for me, even compared to third parties. (for instance here in CH)
People can survive without being members to any "exclusivist" club.

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  #116  
Old 02.12.2014, 10:34
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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But they pay taxes, don't they? And their contribution to the whole economy is profiting the companies, and hence more tax revenue as well for the state. Hence, more people, more money coming in, and more money going out. Overall, that depends on how the state is managing its public spending.
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But it is not about skilled labour, it is about every citizen of the EU benefiting from the union!
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No, as long as it's done from the "centre", all the money get first into a fund upon "E.U." decides on using it, giving the lion's part to some states and leftovers to others is not going to be accepted by anyone, I should hope. Not to mention you'd have the idea of free trade totally compromised anyway.

You guys are getting close. It's about enriching the "state" so they can give out more welfare checks. It makes them more and more powerful. It's an untenable situation. They will eventually have to rob more Peters to pay more Pauls until there are less and less Peters left.

When Peter leaves, who will they rob then?
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  #117  
Old 02.12.2014, 16:12
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

I wish the Brits would fix their state first so that if they didn't wish million or more new immigrant they could have stopped it in its tracks.
But at least good to know what even the most polished ones think about immigrants in their hearts.
With a 2/3 voters rejecting Ecopop dare I to hope that my kids be less discriminated here than in a UK province?
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  #118  
Old 02.12.2014, 16:29
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I wish the Brits would fix their state first so that if they didn't wish million or more new immigrant they could have stopped it in its tracks.
But at least good to know what even the most polished ones think about immigrants in their hearts.
With a 2/3 voters rejecting Ecopop dare I to hope that my kids be less discriminated here than in a UK province?
I very much doubt it.
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  #119  
Old 02.12.2014, 17:05
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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I wish the Brits would fix their state first so that if they didn't wish million or more new immigrant they could have stopped it in its tracks.
But at least good to know what even the most polished ones think about immigrants in their hearts.
With a 2/3 voters rejecting Ecopop dare I to hope that my kids be less discriminated here than in a UK province?
LOL... give me one good reason why a Pole or a Romanian should be given precedence over a Pakistani or a Trinidadian who wants to move to the United Kingdom.
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  #120  
Old 02.12.2014, 17:07
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Re: UK targets East Europe immigrants

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LOL... give me one good reason why a Pole or a Romanian should be given precedence over a Pakistani or a Trinidadian who wants to move to the United Kingdom.
Because they're from EU countries?
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