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  #241  
Old 03.02.2015, 14:50
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Pegida resonated beyond Dresden. It failed because it did not distinguish between race, immigration and extremism. Had the folks in Dresden been more aware of the difference, they would have been able to focus their message. But I guess a large nazi contingency defined the organization and its issues.
The EDL like to claim they are not racist and that they are specifically against extremist Islam, but you don't see many moderate Muslims marching with them, or many other brown faces for that matter (although I understand they have a handful of Sikh supporters)
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  #242  
Old 03.02.2015, 14:57
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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The key problem is that there was a political decision to promise the Eastern Germans similar life quality right from the start without ever being competitive about it -
Isn't this more or less how the EU trashed Greece, Portugal etc?

Basically East Germany sleepwalked into its own ruin and nobody raised a finger to stop them.
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  #243  
Old 03.02.2015, 14:59
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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well, if somebody declares themselves an expert on Islam because they have a Nigerian relative, but don't go on to say anything about what that relative has taught them about Islam, sort of weakens the argument really ...
...
Not really. As the syllogism in his statement is that if he has a friend of Muslim faith, and himself being a normal person, plus you are a friend of or a Family member, then person number 1 (the Muslim) can't be so bad.


I have no idea in which circumstances you had that discussion with your friends of family,

anyhow I find it very odd expecting a person to declare a certain position only because others could put him in the same stereotypic category.


George W. Bush is an American, a Protestant, right? Do you feel to publicly declare your distance from him, as a Christian or as a US citizen, because Jesus told him in a dream to invade Irak?


P.S. I remember you are British. This was just an example.


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Basically East Germany sleepwalked into its own ruin and nobody raised a finger to stop them.
They got trilliards of Euro from Brussels and Bonn.
No comparison to what Greece or PIGS were stolen from. Per capita every Zoni got something like 100.000 Euro or more, in Terms of infrastructure and monetary transfer from the West. Free gift, without any work done in their life.


The German East (the old Mitteldeutschland) had the bad luck to be given to the Soviets, and although war destruction has been far less heavy than in the Western part, the infrastructure suffered heavily from losing the old west-eastern connection, plus the ruin of Bohemia.


And what EAS said before is wrong:
Germans from the Eastern part were leaving the region mainly from 1948 till 1961 (guess why), and then again from 1988/89 till today. Massive braindrain, labor force and drop of human ressources.
A project of rising the number of inhabitants could be a big help. So no wonder one asks oneself why simply not giving all those empty houses to whom is in a need. But refugees don't want to settle there, for the aforementioned reasons.

Last edited by Bucentaure; 03.02.2015 at 15:10.
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  #244  
Old 03.02.2015, 15:02
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Thanks again to Bucentaure for the helpful info! I am now looking into the real reasons why people are moving, and if it's for a lack of work then I am interested to know why Eastern Germany has this problem and other parts of Germany don't - is it just because of the Soviet rule for those 39 years after WW2 - or are there other reason as well?
If you look at what happened immediately after the fall of the Berlin Wall, you suddently had these two different economic system co-existing in the same country with no protective barriers for the less well equipped East. How possibly could Trabant compete with Volkswagen? They had no chance whatsoever. Other countries that joined the EU at least had transitonary phases during which industries could adapt while still having some level of protection. If you travel through East Germany today you see abandoned factories verywhere. Just closed down and left to ruin. It wasn't in most cases even worth attamepting to compete or restructure. There are certain exceptions such as Jenoptik but they weren't enough to keep the rest of the economy ticking.
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  #245  
Old 03.02.2015, 15:07
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Not really. As the syllogism in his statement is that if he has a friend of Muslim faith, and himself being a normal person, plus you are a friend of or a Family member, then person number 1 (the Muslim) can't be so bad.
He didn't actually say his relative was a Muslim, just a Nigerian.

So if his line of argument was "not all Muslims are bad because I know a pleasant one", then surely he should have said his relative was a Muslim.

by the same logic i could say, "not all Mormons are bad because I have an American friend", or "Not all neo nazis are bad because I have a friend in Dresden".

It's just rubbish logic. You know, and something like 27,000 people cheered him over this. Makes you wonder why nobody there had a WTF moment and told him to stop wasting their time? And people are saying Pegida's arguments are a bit stupid and simplistic. Maybe time for a pot-kettle-black check?
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  #246  
Old 03.02.2015, 16:55
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Isn't this more or less how the EU trashed Greece, Portugal etc?

Basically East Germany sleepwalked into its own ruin and nobody raised a finger to stop them.
I do not agree that Greece is the same story. In the early 90s, when the whole Euro thing was discussed... did the Greek government start to actively fake the books. We know today that the country never made the criterias set up for countries to join the Euro. I personally believe that everyone in Brussels figured it out, but there was a political will to let them in. However, there is still a difference between a political decision within Germany and the Greeks lying to the rest of the EU.
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  #247  
Old 04.02.2015, 13:25
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I do not agree that Greece is the same story. In the early 90s, when the whole Euro thing was discussed... did the Greek government start to actively fake the books. We know today that the country never made the criterias set up for countries to join the Euro.
Would the DDR ever have fulfilled the criteria to join the EU in its own right? I don't know. But having West Germany stand up for them and take on the responsibility definitely helped. I don't think anybody lied about the condition of the DDR economy at the time, and they didn't need to as the problem was pretty obvious. But I think there was a lot of naievety about the economy's ability to recover. Kohl predicted his "blühende Landschaften" and I think at the time many believed him and possibly he even believed it himself. But whether or not it was planned, what happened was that East survived largely on handouts from the West, or better still, that West German construction companies went into the East to do infrastructure work such as building the new motorways and so the money being pumped into the East was flowing back into the West. I think there are parallels to Greece here as the Greek economy has virtually stopped making anything but all the free money they are getting is going straight into buying stuff from outside, a lot of it from Germany. So it's a set up that's flawed from the beginning and not one that is encouraging growth in the weaker regions.
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  #248  
Old 19.08.2015, 21:09
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Latest estimates are that 800,000 will apply for asylum in Germany for this year alone. That's 1% of the entire population. Or a city bigger than Frankfurt requiring food, shelter and clothing.

German politicians will have to address this realistically soon if they want to avoid tension or disorder. Once the summer has finished I expect to see some sort of backlash, whether it's from Pegida or another reactionary organisation.

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/p.../12208290.html

http://www.wsj.com/articles/germans-...ear-1440002063
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  #249  
Old 19.08.2015, 21:22
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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German politicians will have to address this realistically soon if they want to avoid tension or disorder. Once the summer has finished I expect to see some sort of backlash, whether it's from Pegida or another reactionary organisation.
You seem to read only the news you like... in case you missed it:
- PEGIDA as a movement is pretty much dead - even in Dresden do they not get more than a small three digit number of people together and all that is left from their agenda is being against Islam. http://www.stern.de/politik/andreas-...h-6370674.html

- there has been a lot of solidarity with the refugees... I heard repeatedly news on the radio where the red cross asked people to NOT bring more clothes for donations as their storage capacity was at it's limit (but they'd be happy about food or cash donations...).

- people are unhappy about the politicians when it comes to the refugees. But not in the line you are thinking: Particularly the federal government does what it usually does in crisis times: nothing. Angela Merkel learned from Helmut Kohl during decades that most problems solve themselves when you look long enough in another direction. Won't happen with 800k refugees and both state and local levels are completely overwhelmed with the situation: they need financial and logistical help from the federation and Angela Merkel has done absolutely zero about it... and get's stronger and stronger criticism for their inaction:

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  #250  
Old 19.08.2015, 22:03
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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You seem to read only the news you like... in case you missed it:
- PEGIDA as a movement is pretty much dead - even in Dresden do they not get more than a small three digit number of people together and all that is left from their agenda is being against Islam. http://www.stern.de/politik/andreas-...h-6370674.html
The Nazi party was banned and membership plummeted after the Munich Putsch. Everyone thought that was that, and we all know what happened next.

I said that perhaps it won't be Pegida that reemerges in the autumn, but I do expect some sort of protest movement, especially if there's continued inaction from the State.

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- there has been a lot of solidarity with the refugees... I heard repeatedly news on the radio where the red cross asked people to NOT bring more clothes for donations as their storage capacity was at it's limit (but they'd be happy about food or cash donations...).
Yes, perhaps. But likewise there has also been equal if not more tension from people that oppose this level of influx. Just scroll through the comments section of any online article from German news websites reporting this topic and you'll get the picture.

A lot of anger is being vented at the Greens from what I've read, together with the continuous stream of "propaganda" coming from news outlets when reporting these stories.

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- people are unhappy about the politicians when it comes to the refugees. But not in the line you are thinking: Particularly the federal government does what it usually does in crisis times: nothing. Angela Merkel learned from Helmut Kohl during decades that most problems solve themselves when you look long enough in another direction. Won't happen with 800k refugees and both state and local levels are completely overwhelmed with the situation: they need financial and logistical help from the federation and Angela Merkel has done absolutely zero about it... and get's stronger and stronger criticism for their inaction:
Whatever happens it's going to be interesting to see how Germany will deal with this problem. I don't think running to the EU will do much good either.
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  #251  
Old 20.08.2015, 10:03
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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- there has been a lot of solidarity with the refugees... I heard repeatedly news on the radio where the red cross asked people to NOT bring more clothes for donations as their storage capacity was at it's limit (but they'd be happy about food or cash donations...).
This is not at all my observation. I discussed the issue with several German friends and acquainteances over the last days. The ones that were always pretty sceptical of immigration have become even more so and the ones who used to be open towards it are seeing it more critically.

Of course German TV, being "Obrigkeits und Kaisertreu" to the point of nausea contiinues to beat the drum and preach the party line. But this is not the reality down on the ground.
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  #252  
Old 20.08.2015, 10:29
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

At some point, you'd think most Germans would do that math. So they've managed to sustain their welfare state after unification. Can they really afford to add millions of more people to the dole? I suspect those who don't mind adding more to the dole are those who are not actually contributing to support those on the dole.

Atlas may shrug in Germany yet.
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  #253  
Old 20.08.2015, 10:31
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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This is not at all my observation. I discussed the issue with several German friends and acquainteances over the last days. The ones that were always pretty sceptical of immigration have become even more so and the ones who used to be open towards it are seeing it more critically.
Let me guess: is it the type that's sceptical of immigration but themselves immigrated to Switzerland? That's my favourite kind...


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Of course German TV, being "Obrigkeits und Kaisertreu" to the point of nausea contiinues to beat the drum and preach the party line. But this is not the reality down on the ground.
I honestly don't know where you make up this bullshit, but I think the German press is one of the few in Europe that does it's job and is critically discussing whatever politicians or society does. Certainly better than American and most of British media... even the state run TV has clearly more freedom and tries to cover without bias - something i cannot really say about the BBC.
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  #254  
Old 20.08.2015, 10:42
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I honestly don't know where you make up this bullshit, but I think the German press is one of the few in Europe that does it's job and is critically discussing whatever politicians or society does. Certainly better than American and most of British media... even the state run TV has clearly more freedom and tries to cover without bias - something i cannot really say about the BBC.
I'm certainly no friend of the BBC. In fact I don't believe in the concept of state media. But sorry, German TV has little to do with quality reporting. Especially when it comes to reporting on things like PEGIDA and other anti immigration voices, they are only ridiculing and misrepresenting and often resorting to pretty low-level tricks. They also seem to be unaware of Godwin's law as that one gets rolled out on a daily basis.
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  #255  
Old 20.08.2015, 10:50
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Atlas may shrug in Germany yet.

Rather than take it out on the poor bastards on the sharp end who are just trying to get a piece of the pie that we all received without even asking, maybe Atlas ought to have a word with his masters about their short sighted and foolish foreign policies, which have played a very large part in creating all this mayhem in the first place?
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  #256  
Old 20.08.2015, 11:07
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Rather than take it out on the poor bastards on the sharp end who are just trying to get a piece of the pie that we all received without even asking, maybe Atlas ought to have a word with his masters about their short sighted and foolish foreign policies, which have played a very large part in creating all this mayhem in the first place?
Which foolish german foreign policy would that be? And how was the pie? I don't think I've ever tasted it.
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  #257  
Old 20.08.2015, 11:10
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Which foolish german foreign policy would that be?
Going into Russia in '41
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  #258  
Old 20.08.2015, 11:18
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Which foolish german foreign policy would that be? And how was the pie? I don't think I've ever tasted it.
Propping up the Ottoman Empire when it was already beyond life support, preventing the self determination of Syria. Of course after the Ottomans left, the Brits and French continued with that policy.
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  #259  
Old 20.08.2015, 11:24
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Rather than take it out on the poor bastards on the sharp end who are just trying to get a piece of the pie that we all received without even asking, maybe Atlas ought to have a word with his masters
Who are his masters? Thought Germany was an independent country...
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Old 20.08.2015, 11:31
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Who are his masters? Thought Germany was an independent country...
I think there is a veiled anti-semitic conspiracy-theory message somewhere.

The last time somebody played that card an Austrian aquarel artist Godwin and something.
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