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  #281  
Old 20.08.2015, 15:16
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Since there are many on this forum who don't necessarily know the German media landscape and hear repeatedly here how government steered and PC it is do I think I give you a simple example of one of those tax money funded channels...

To show people who blindly mass media follows every youtube video without doing due diligence on the source did one of them manipulate a video of former Greek minister Varoufakis - making him sticking the finger to Germany. It ended up in a prime time talk show where Germany's most prominent host confronted Varoufakis with it. He knew he didn't do it, but nobody believed him... all "experts" were convinced it's real. "Varoufake":
The censorship of topics that occur need not be centrally administered. It is self-imposed by people themselves. Such as these comments that rational talking points must have been inspired by Fox News or an American somewhere. Duh. Not points towards the topic earned for these:

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...Must be a crazy idea for an American that a government would do what the majority wants...
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You obviously don't know German media very well, did you get this insight from Fox News?
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  #282  
Old 20.08.2015, 15:22
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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The money comes out of the pocket of the electorate, they pay for what they want. It's called democracy...
It'll be interesting to see how they vote next time out. Recent polls in non-confrontational Sweden have shown huge swings to the right off of the back of this summer.
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  #283  
Old 20.08.2015, 15:30
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Many actually believe in human rights as well as civil liberty. Part of that package is that you agree to help people in need
I would say almost everyone here agrees with human rights and civil liberty. But there has to be a line drawn somewhere, no? If you walk down a street full of beggars, and you start giving a few Francs to each one, by the time you get to the end of the street, you will also have no money left and need to start begging as well.

There is expected to be 750,000 immigrants in Germany this year alone. To put that in perspective, imagine the Allianz stadium in Münich packed with 75,000 people. Now imagine it 10x. That's what is arriving in Germany this year. Where do you put them? How do you pay for them?

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Oppermann said: “We should be reactivating pensioners who could earn some money by helping out to speed things up. We need unconventional measures in order to accommodate the refugees ... after all, we’re a rich country and we need to be in a situation where we can take in 500,000 or 750,000 people ... we need to knuckle down now.”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...rnment-sources
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  #284  
Old 20.08.2015, 15:33
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Where do you put them? How do you pay for them?
Did Fox News ask you to ask that question? Stop watching it!
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  #285  
Old 20.08.2015, 15:37
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Lol, me thinks Oppermann will lose his seat next election. If he's not lynched first.
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  #286  
Old 20.08.2015, 15:38
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Since there are many on this forum who don't necessarily know the German media landscape and hear repeatedly here how government steered and PC it is do I think I give you a simple example of one of those tax money funded channels...

To show people who blindly mass media follows every youtube video without doing due diligence on the source did one of them manipulate a video of former Greek minister Varoufakis - making him sticking the finger to Germany. It ended up in a prime time talk show where Germany's most prominent host confronted Varoufakis with it. He knew he didn't do it, but nobody believed him... all "experts" were convinced it's real. "Varoufake":
Sorry, at the end of the day this is Fasnacht entertainment. Somebody trolls somebody else and everybody is having a good belly laugh. This is Borat stuff. Funny, but not really journalism.

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Let me guess: is it the type that's sceptical of immigration but themselves immigrated to Switzerland? That's my favourite kind...
Sorry. This is logic light. This is the same sort of crap as feminsits saying men can't have an opinion on abortion because they don't have a vagina, or saying you can' criticise teachers' political antics because they're the ones who taught you to read and write. It is denying people can ever be objective. Most people get beyond that level of maturitry when they're about 8.

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Many actually believe in human rights as well as civil liberty.
Those are nice grand words. And of course its easy to say you do them because you believe in them in a lofty arm waving way just as you believe in unicorns whereas the others use them to forward their objectives and don't mean them at all. To believe it that way you must be either very naive or you are intentionally wearing blinkers and ignoring large swathes of unpleasant reality. Hint: German policy is not altruistic. The other problem with that argument is that it can be turned around and fits both ways. It ultimately boils down to "we are the good guys and therefore we're right".

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The money comes out of the pocket of the electorate, they pay for what they want. It's called democracy... Must be a crazy idea for an American that a government would do what the majority wants... but that's how it actually is supposed to work.
How does the government know what the majority wants. Did they ask them? Was it a main topic at the last election? Or has the government got a magical crstal ball that tells them they are always right?

I honestly thought you could do better than this.
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  #287  
Old 20.08.2015, 15:56
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Well with a whiny tone and some finger pointing incriminations, an argument may garner some sympathy from the less critical. Not that it makes it any more valid. But it may work for some, I suppose.
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  #288  
Old 20.08.2015, 16:21
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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The money comes out of the pocket of the electorate, they pay for what they want. It's called democracy... Must be a crazy idea for an American that a government would do what the majority wants... but that's how it actually is supposed to work.
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Lol, me thinks Oppermann will lose his seat next election. If he's not lynched first.
Let's wait and see if "German democracy" works the same as "American democracy"
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  #289  
Old 20.08.2015, 17:16
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Well with a whiny tone and some finger pointing incriminations, an argument may garner some sympathy from the less critical. Not that it makes it any more valid. But it may work for some, I suppose.

Observing that Europe's chickens are coming home to roost is hardly "whining", Phos.

Just saying it like it is.


Member states of the EU and NATO only have themselves to blame for the humanitarian crisis that is now taking place. They can hardly turn their backs on the problems that they themselves created.
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  #290  
Old 20.08.2015, 17:33
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Observing that Europe's chickens are coming home to roost is hardly "whining", Phos.

Just saying it like it is.


Member states of the EU and NATO only have themselves to blame for the humanitarian crisis that is now taking place. They can hardly turn their backs on the problems that they themselves created.
Member states of the EU/NATO ≠ Germany/Sweden. This "humanitarian crisis" is at least 60% the result of their generous welfare state.

The funny thing is, when Germany and Sweden run to the EU and ask for help in "sharing the burden", the rest of Europe will tell them to piss off. That's not to mention the migrants themselves, who would much rather be in Leipzig than Lisbon.
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  #291  
Old 20.08.2015, 17:35
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Member states of the EU and NATO only have themselves to blame for the humanitarian crisis that is now taking place. They can hardly turn their backs on the problems that they themselves created.
Well, that's a strong assumption. The US seems to do exactly that very successfully for decades.

I think overall are the refugees a great topic for politicians. Every wing can demonstrate their position without really doing something. Journalists are happy because they can produce emotional photos in Calais and write heartwarming stories... and be so close to the problem without having to travel to any dirty or dangerous third world country... (Ok, Calais is technically in France...)

How much do the 800.000 refugees cost Germany? Estimates are around 10 Billion Euro. Honestly: Not exactly cheap but not exactly something that could tear the society of an 80 Million strong rich industrial nation in pieces as so many here pretend. The richest family in Germany could alone pay for all of them for three years...

Any idea how many billions we are getting screwed with in case TTIP is coming through? But it's much easier to blame some poor refugees than some incompetent political leadership arranging trade agreements they don't understand...
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  #292  
Old 20.08.2015, 17:40
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Any idea how many billions we are getting screwed with in case TTIP is coming through? But it's much easier to blame some poor refugees than some incompetent political leadership arranging trade agreements they don't understand...
That's not even discussed in the media.
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  #293  
Old 20.08.2015, 17:49
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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How much do the 800.000 refugees cost Germany? Estimates are around 10 Billion Euro.
Wie bitte?

Where does this figure come from? That would come down to 12,500 Euro per case.

This money doesn't even cost the legal costs of a clear cut case (which most asylum applications arfe not). Let alone the costs of accomodation, food, language courses, child allowances, policing, childcare, health coverage and whatnot, not even to mention the longer term costs they will impose on the community.

Not to mention that this is the tip of the iceberg and many many more are to come.

The 10 Billion may be per month or something, but are definietly not the total overall honest costs.

I really think you are increasingly living in the land of unicorns and believing green politicians.

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Any idea how many billions we are getting screwed with in case TTIP is coming through? But it's much easier to blame some poor refugees than some incompetent political leadership arranging trade agreements they don't understand...
Isn't it strange how when we are talking TTIP you consider politicians incompetent and being screwed, but when it comes to refugees you swallow every word they say and praise them for being so brave. Selective appreciation or what?

And BTW, nobody is blaming the refugees. They are blaiming the politicians who are saying they're welcome and who caused the crisis in the first place. It's the leftie politicians who are deflecting that and saying if you blame us or don't like how we're handling it you are hating these poor people. A very cheap trick but obviosly effective (for now).

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  #294  
Old 20.08.2015, 17:56
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Wie bitte?

Where does this figure come from? That would come down to 12,500 Euro per case.

This money doesn't even cost the legal costs of a clear cut case (which most asylum applications arfe not). Let alone the costs of accomodation, food, language courses, child allowances, policing, childcare, helth coverage and whatnot, not even to mention the longer term costs they will impose on the community.

The 10 Billion may be per moth or something, but are definietly not the total overall honest costs.

I really think you are increasingly living in the land of unicorns.
I am not making the number up, it's in every singe German newspaper today. For you do I pick a more conservative one:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaf...-13758770.html

Yes, 12-13.000 EUR are the costs per refugee per year in Germany. That includes housing, food, clothing and all the services the local level has to organize (biggest cost driver are social workers who live with groups of children who came without family...). No, it does not include the bureaucratic costs to process their asylum applications.

I told you the shopping is cheaper there... and thanks for your insults.
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  #295  
Old 20.08.2015, 18:01
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Member states of the EU and NATO only have themselves to blame for the humanitarian crisis that is now taking place. They can hardly turn their backs on the problems that they themselves created.
I don't think this is entirely fair. sure, the EU and NATO bear some responsibility perhaps for not doing something sooner, and certainly the US bears a fair share of the blame for meddling in the region for the last 30 years, but a vast bulk of the blame rests on the countries and peoples involved.
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  #296  
Old 20.08.2015, 18:04
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Yes, 12-13.000 EUR are the costs per refugee per year in Germany. That includes housing, food, clothing and all the services the local level has to organize (biggest cost driver are social workers who live with groups of children who came without family...). No, it does not include the bureaucratic costs to process their asylum applications.
So it's not the total costs. Therefore it's a half truth.

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I don't think this is entirely fair. sure, the EU and NATO bear some responsibility perhaps for not doing something sooner, and certainly the US bears a fair share of the blame for meddling in the region for the last 30 years, but a vast bulk of the blame rests on the countries and peoples involved.
Of course, but it's always easier to resort to the guilt drive. Emotionalize an argument to obscure the facts.
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  #297  
Old 20.08.2015, 21:08
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Of course, but it's always easier to resort to the guilt drive. Emotionalize an argument to obscure the facts.
And the stupidity of it all are these attempts to blame the problem where it didn't occur, and to fix the problem where there isn't one. Some westerners consider themselves "enlightened" and *erudite* for such myopia. I think these ought to be sent to live in Syria and Irag, and ought to get neutered in the process.
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  #298  
Old 20.08.2015, 21:24
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

FFS which bit of "supporting the rebels", "deposing governments", "destroying the infrastructure" and "encouraging secession" do you not understand, Phos?

The cause of this summer's misery lies entirely with the EU and NATO.

I don't recall there being this many boat people before the laughable "Arab Spring" that you seemed so happy to celebrate.

Some more clear eyed people saw this coming right from the beginning, just as we saw what was going to happen when Germany and her chums encouraged Slovenia and Croatia to leave Yugoslavia, or when NATO bombed Belgrade, or when our idiot governments invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's our mess, Phos. Our countries did this. Now our countries have to fix it.
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  #299  
Old 20.08.2015, 21:52
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Oh, so everything that has happened to these people is the work of their colonial masters because they don't have a mind of their own? Colonialism is long over, and you need to respect people's right to self determination. This notion that some members of humanity are members of a super race that needs to set policies for the management of the less endowed inferior race is still quite bigotted and racist at its core.

The problem exists in their part of the world, not here. The solution needs to occur there, not here. For as long as that is not recognized and address there, this situation will persist. Importing the problem here does not lessen it there. Offering up false soluions to the problem will only exarcerbate it.
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Old 20.08.2015, 21:54
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The cause of this summer's misery lies entirely with the EU and NATO.
IIRC, Russia is funding and supporting the Assad regime in Syria, so we can agree it's 50% Russia's fault then. Afghanistan has always been a mess, even before the USSR invaded, I don't see how EU/NATO/US made it worse this year? There's also alot of sub-Saharan Africans coming over, I don't recall the EU/US/NATO doing anything there?

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I don't recall there being this many boat people before the laughable "Arab Spring" that you seemed so happy to celebrate.
True, the Middle East seems to function best under dictatorships, but how do you turn the clock back?
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