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  #301  
Old 20.08.2015, 23:29
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Colonialism is long over
Not quite, we just have a new version of it.
for instance
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-884306.html

Last edited by greenmount; 20.08.2015 at 23:40.
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  #302  
Old 21.08.2015, 00:01
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Oh, so everything that has happened to these people is the work of their colonial masters because they don't have a mind of their own? Colonialism is long over, and you need to respect people's right to self determination. This notion that some members of humanity are members of a super race that needs to set policies for the management of the less endowed inferior race is still quite bigotted and racist at its core.

The problem exists in their part of the world, not here. The solution needs to occur there, not here. For as long as that is not recognized and address there, this situation will persist. Importing the problem here does not lessen it there. Offering up false soluions to the problem will only exarcerbate it.
Do you ever open a newspaper, Phos? This isn't about 19th century colonialism, it's about bloody stupid foreign policy decisions made in the last 5 years.

Where were the boat people when Gaddafi, Assad, Hussein and the rest of them were running the show? Nobody was entering Europe via Libya because Libya actually had a proper government, even if it was a pretty crap one. Now there's no government, no control, no help from the countries to the north. The acting government in Tripoli recently sent some boats to Italy to be repaired. They were impounded by the European authorities, so now they've got even less hope of policing their waters. So it's ok to bomb the shit out of the country, to destroy the government, bugger up the infrastructure, open the door to Islamist nutters (who get all their cash and equipment from the United States and United Kingdom - I presume you've actually been paying attention to the news for the last 3 years?) - but it's not ok to actually work together with the Libyans to maintain secure borders?

This is madness. Sheer bloody madness.
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  #303  
Old 21.08.2015, 10:19
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Germany looking at bringing back boarder controls.

Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted? So much for Schengen and freedom of movement that Germany has been championing so much.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...EU-reform.html
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  #304  
Old 21.08.2015, 10:29
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Germany looking at bringing back boarder controls.

Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted? So much for Schengen and freedom of movement that Germany has been championing so much.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...EU-reform.html
What a silly article. That would "solve" the non-EU migration, not the other things UK was "fighting" for. Well, not really but anyway.
I'm looking forward to seeing what British err, media, will discover.
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  #305  
Old 21.08.2015, 11:08
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Germany looking at bringing back boarder controls.

Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted? So much for Schengen and freedom of movement that Germany has been championing so much.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...EU-reform.html
This article is a bizarre misrepresentation of what the German interior minister said: He is meeting with his French counterpart (and Merkel will meet Hollande next week on the same topic): The two biggest countries in continental Europe agree that Brussels is not working fast enough on resolving the refugee crisis. He wants
- the EU to agree on ONE list of countries considered safe... and Germany thinks that countries that are applying to become EU members cannot be the source of refugees. In other words: push the Balkan countries to fix their issues with minorities and send the people back.
- EU funding especially for Italy and Greece to set up the agreed camps where refugees can arrive and get quickly registered and safely transported to places they can stay spread across the EU according to an agreed plan

At the end of it did he mention in a side note that for him the refugee situation is much worse than any Greek financial crisis and really puts Europe to the test. He is outright pissed off that Brussels needs forever to get anything that has already been agreed on actually set up and done. His "if they cannot even do this basic stuff, we should get our borders back" was more of a snipe than anything else. To turn this into a "border control plan" is something only the Telegraph is capable of.
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  #306  
Old 21.08.2015, 11:30
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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At the end of it did he mention in a side note that for him the refugee situation is much worse than any Greek financial crisis and really puts Europe to the test. He is outright pissed off that Brussels needs forever to get anything that has already been agreed on actually set up and done. His "if they cannot even do this basic stuff, we should get our borders back" was more of a snipe than anything else. To turn this into a "border control plan" is something only the Telegraph is capable of.
A couple of years ago it would have been unthinkable for a German minister to say something like that even in jest. So I think it's not incorrect to detect an undercurrent movement in position here, even if the article is too blunt in its interpretation thereof.
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Old 21.08.2015, 11:46
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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A couple of years ago it would have been unthinkable for a German minister to say something like that even in jest. So I think it's not incorrect to detect an undercurrent movement in position here, even if the article is too blunt in its interpretation thereof.
It's completely incorrect, sorry. Thomas de Maizière is about as pro-European as a conservative politician in Europe technically can be. But he is not exactly the most diplomatic person when it comes to "how do I phrase this sentence well"...

forgot one of his points which is important:
- he wants to connect aid to African countries to the condition that they take their "refugees" back as it apparently is an issue to get people who destroyed their papers accepted back by their home countries.
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  #308  
Old 21.08.2015, 11:58
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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FFS which bit of "supporting the rebels", "deposing governments", "destroying the infrastructure" and "encouraging secession" do you not understand, Phos?

The cause of this summer's misery lies entirely with the EU and NATO.

I don't recall there being this many boat people before the laughable "Arab Spring" that you seemed so happy to celebrate.

Some more clear eyed people saw this coming right from the beginning, just as we saw what was going to happen when Germany and her chums encouraged Slovenia and Croatia to leave Yugoslavia, or when NATO bombed Belgrade, or when our idiot governments invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's our mess, Phos. Our countries did this. Now our countries have to fix it.
I don't think anybody is seriously denying that one part of the blame lies with the governments that we elected, or that got elected in elections in which we took part or could have taken part, even if we didn't vote for those that messed things up.

But just because in some indirect way we are to blame, for example, because although we didn't vote for Tony Blair, or failed to forsee that he would do this, or if we did forsee it, still failed to prevent others from voting for him (and that is assuming anything we could have done as individuals could have stopped him), it is still a bit of a big leap in logic that this electoral guilt that will weigh on our souls in puragtory is greater and we are more to blame for the situation out there then the idiots actually causing the mayhem there right now and those funding and supporting them.
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  #309  
Old 21.08.2015, 14:53
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I honestly don't know where you make up this bullshit, but I think the German press is one of the few in Europe that does it's job and is critically discussing whatever politicians or society does. Certainly better than American and most of British media... even the state run TV has clearly more freedom and tries to cover without bias - something i cannot really say about the BBC.
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Since there are many on this forum who don't necessarily know the German media landscape and hear repeatedly here how government steered and PC it is do I think I give you a simple example of one of those tax money funded channels...
Cough... Cough...

http://www.derwesten.de/staedte/dort...d11009016.html
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  #310  
Old 21.08.2015, 15:08
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

A friend and I did a test some years ago.

We registered several user accounts on German media sites using obviously fake names. We then posted a lot of crap to relevant news stories, half of thejm with extreme right wing loonieness and the other half extreme left wing pooh pah. Interestingly the accounts posting the right wing stuff were *all* deleted with the justification that the user names were fake (not because of the content of the postings apparently) but the left wing ones were without exception left as is (and actually got loads of thumbs up).

So pease don't talk about German media being cough cough even handed.
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  #311  
Old 21.08.2015, 18:54
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Interesting. Further confirms the heavily biased reporting I have been suspecting all along...
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  #312  
Old 22.08.2015, 10:29
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Newspaper and media are like anaesthesia and painkillers. They are not in the business of informing you. They are in the business of selling you advertisement for their clients.


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Do you ever open a newspaper, Phos? This isn't about 19th century colonialism, it's about bloody stupid foreign policy decisions made in the last 5 years.

Where were the boat people when Gaddafi, Assad, Hussein and the rest of them were running the show? Nobody was entering Europe via Libya because Libya actually had a proper government, even if it was a pretty crap one. Now there's no government, no control, no help from the countries to the north. The acting government in Tripoli recently sent some boats to Italy to be repaired. They were impounded by the European authorities, so now they've got even less hope of policing their waters. So it's ok to bomb the shit out of the country, to destroy the government, bugger up the infrastructure, open the door to Islamist nutters (who get all their cash and equipment from the United States and United Kingdom - I presume you've actually been paying attention to the news for the last 3 years?) - but it's not ok to actually work together with the Libyans to maintain secure borders?

This is madness. Sheer bloody madness.

This is about unbridled immigration into Germany, not foreign policy. The topic here is the social incohesion occurring in Germany due to failure of integrating a subculture into German society. Foreign policy topics are covered in other threads.

Furthermore, what we are seeing today are less about the application of foreign policy, and more due to the absence of foreign policy, or the failure to apply a principled foreign policy. Its not about intervention of the last five years, but the lack of any intervention at all. Basically, the West has lost leadership and credibility in that part of the world. For this, you can credit Obama. He declared a "redline" of intervention in case of use of chemical weapons. The line was crossed, making it clear there are no consequences for any kinds of crimes, emboldening ISIS. Its a classic case study of how leftist who claim to be peaceniks encourage war. And he's not done yet. Looks like he's headed towards emboldening Iranian aggression.

This is about the failure of governments and laws. Not only of failed states in the Middle East, but also in the West. When you have politicians and pundits like yourself prescribing lawlessness as an answer, then that society will slide towards the failure of that state. We are seeing the same in the US. The outcome of this is not a stronger state. Lawlessness is towards the direction of a failed state. The state and its government loses its credibility.

Should western society descend and decay further, then just as well. No need to blame anyone for it. Its people simply did not know any better, and doesn't really deserve any better. On second thought, I think I'll blame leftists.
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  #313  
Old 22.08.2015, 11:16
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

More unfocused rambling from Phos. I'd reply if I knew where to start but there's no meat in your post to get my teeth into, so I shan't bother.

Never mind.
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  #314  
Old 24.08.2015, 10:23
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Germany wasn't saying anything when italy and Greece were getting flooded. But now that they have reached Germany, Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel calls EU a disgrace.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-refugee-surge

He does acknowledge Europe is “somehow in a deep sleep and not coming out of holiday mode”.

The Shengen loophole doesn't really work, does it?
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Old 24.08.2015, 12:13
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

These German politicians need to wind their neck in. They're happy to let in 800 thousand immigrants and then expect the rest of the EU to take a load of their hands. It's utterly preposterous. You let them in mate, it's your problem.

What this idiot doesn't seem to realise, is that his own people are against this unrestricted stream of migrants. If Germany tries to apply any pressure for other countries to take on migrants then it'll just hasten the collapse of the EU.
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Old 24.08.2015, 12:16
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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If Germany tries to apply any pressure for other countries to take on migrants then it'll just hasten the collapse of the EU.
So some good might come out of this situation after all!
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  #317  
Old 24.08.2015, 12:26
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Meanwhile, the Germans have shown their hospitality by setting another planned Asylum seeker shelter on fire.

http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeit...asylunterkunft
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  #318  
Old 24.08.2015, 15:09
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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What this idiot doesn't seem to realise, is that his own people are against this unrestricted stream of migrants. If Germany tries to apply any pressure for other countries to take on migrants then it'll just hasten the collapse of the EU.
An MEI referendum would likely pass for most EU countries right about now. Notable how the UK feels no guilt in turning people away at Calais, with their past foreign policy and all.

I think some Germans secretly want this influx of people, as their ageing boomer population dies off, and their younger ones choose not to procreate, they'll need a larger population to vie for Superpower-ship.
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Old 26.08.2015, 10:09
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Another day, another arson attack on a planned shelter. This time in eastern Germany. Perhaps this is actually Germany's long term plan - to house the migrants in the bleak, barren and hopeless former DDR and then hope they move on to Sweden or elsewhere.
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Old 26.08.2015, 10:41
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I think some Germans secretly want this influx of people, as their ageing boomer population dies off, and their younger ones choose not to procreate, they'll need a larger population to vie for Superpower-ship.
I don't think its a "secret". Some politicians are saying it quite openly, without the superpower bit of course.

I think a lot of the political thinking can be reduced to

1) We are superior to other European countries because we take in more refugees, and countries who quibble with us over how many they're taking in are scum.

2) These people are an economic opportunity and will make us rich.

3) if you disagree with our plan to world leadership you're a Nazi.

At this point it becomes very difficult to distinguish German leadership from 8-year olds.
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