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  #361  
Old 08.09.2015, 10:00
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I should be a bloody psychic. As if on cue there were Pegida rallies/protests in Munich, Leipzig and Dresden last night. They've not gone away.

http://www.demotix.com/news/8486279/...#media-8486407

http://www.l-iz.de/leben/gesellschaf...eticker-106315
I also believe that the powers that be are bracing themselves for electoral gains among anti immigration forces.

German radio always used to speak of Mrs le Pen as a "Rechtsextremistin". I've noticed these last few weeks they've been saying "Rechts gerichtet". To me this seems like proactive damage minimization. Suppose some years down the road president Marine will have to shake chancellor Angela's hand at a summit meeting, and dear Angela couldn't possibly shake the hand of a "Rechtsextremistin".

Also Seehofer, whose political life so far has been pretty much spineless and go along with the crowd has suddenly discovered his politically incorrect side and is trying to capitalize on the undercurrent of dissatisfaction. For actually being someone in government it's going to be a tough one to explain to his voters though.
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  #362  
Old 08.09.2015, 10:08
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I should be a bloody psychic. As if on cue there were Pegida rallies/protests in Munich, Leipzig and Dresden last night. They've not gone away.

http://www.demotix.com/news/8486279/...#media-8486407

http://www.l-iz.de/leben/gesellschaf...eticker-106315
I love that demotix site.

The people who are protesting against the government are angry stupid guys, whereas those "counter-protesting" in favour of government policy (and receing government money for doing so) are shown as "civil unrest".
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  #363  
Old 08.09.2015, 10:30
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I love that demotix site.

The people who are protesting against the government are angry stupid guys, whereas those "counter-protesting" in favour of government policy (and receing government money for doing so) are shown as "civil unrest".
This is Germany. I think there's an ingrained fear that the country will return to National Socialism at the drop of a hat, hence the reporting bias. But, as this video shows, deep deep down, it's still in there somewhere...

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  #364  
Old 14.09.2015, 21:32
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

7,000 Pegida demonstrators in Dresden tonight.
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  #365  
Old 14.09.2015, 22:15
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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This is Germany. I think there's an ingrained fear that the country will return to National Socialism at the drop of a hat, hence the reporting bias. But, as this video shows, deep deep down, it's still in there somewhere...
I was just in Germany for nearly two weeks and did not find any trace of any existing Nazis. I think this is an old demon in people's minds. Checkpoint Charlie sort of illustrates how the whole country was virtually incarcerated after the Nazis. It has been penalized, gone through rehabilitation, and has paid its dues. Mentioning Nazis when speaking of German culture and values is simply shrillness.

I did learn something about the Germans on this trip. I was dining with a family, and later broached the subject of the immigrants. Their body language and non-verbal communication expressed shock and dismay, but their words parroted glowing statements about all of us getting along and helping each other.

I realized that the Germans are very reserved people who hold two faces. One is for public facing to demonstrate how good of a citizen they are. Th other is much more private, and they don't readily let just anybody know what they are thinking or feeling. It may be along the Sie and Du levels of intimacy. The point is that I don't think these outward displays of their sentiments, and the number of people that show up are an indication of true german sentiments. If anything, they do value outward public perception, and are keen to promote positive citizenship. Does that mean they are inwardly Nazis? I think they are much smarter than that.
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  #366  
Old 14.09.2015, 22:46
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I was just in Germany for nearly two weeks and did not find any trace of any existing Nazis. I think this is an old demon in people's minds. Checkpoint Charlie sort of illustrates how the whole country was virtually incarcerated after the Nazis. It has been penalized, gone through rehabilitation, and has paid its dues. Mentioning Nazis when speaking of German culture and values is simply shrillness.

I did learn something about the Germans on this trip. I was dining with a family, and later broached the subject of the immigrants. Their body language and non-verbal communication expressed shock and dismay, but their words parroted glowing statements about all of us getting along and helping each other.

I realized that the Germans are very reserved people who hold two faces. One is for public facing to demonstrate how good of a citizen they are. Th other is much more private, and they don't readily let just anybody know what they are thinking or feeling. It may be along the Sie and Du levels of intimacy. The point is that I don't think these outward displays of their sentiments, and the number of people that show up are an indication of true german sentiments. If anything, they do value outward public perception, and are keen to promote positive citizenship. Does that mean they are inwardly Nazis? I think they are much smarter than that.
That video was posted tongue in cheek, however I do have to disagree with you on there being no trace of right extremism in Germany. I don't know where you were but the further you venture out into the former DDR you'll find that it's rife there. People greeting each other in private with a raised right hand isn't uncommon.

Which is a shame for moderately conservative Germans. Pegida rose up in the east and there are large elements of neo nazis within this movement. However moderate people who oppose this mass immigration at the moment
need a voice and groups like Pegida provide it for them. And with the Nazi element it's easy for the press and the rest of the political class to dismiss them.

Last edited by Loz1983; 14.09.2015 at 23:00.
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  #367  
Old 14.09.2015, 22:54
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Funny thing is it wasn't so long ago that Merckel was saying the same thing herself... such a populist:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...uralism-failed

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The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, has courted growing anti-immigrant opinion in Germany by claiming the country's attempts to create a multicultural society have "utterly failed".

Speaking to a meeting of young members of her Christian Democratic Union party, Merkel said the idea of people from different cultural backgrounds living happily "side by side" did not work.

She said the onus was on immigrants to do more to integrate into German society.

"This [multicultural] approach has failed, utterly failed," Merkel told the meeting in Potsdam, west of Berlin, yesterday
EDIT : Fantastic interview with Thilo Sarrazin - a genuine political thinker :
http://www.zeit.de/2015/37/thilo-sar...ration-frontex

Quote:
Sarrazin: Die Menschen, die jetzt in Wien oder München ankommen, sind nicht in Not, sondern in Sicherheit. Sie werden nicht an Leib und Leben bedroht, sie werden ernährt und medizinisch betreut ...

ZEIT: Sie kommen nach Deutschland, um sich in Sicherheit zu bringen, weil sie vorher in Not waren.

Sarrazin: Wenn sich diese Menschen auf die Balkanroute machen, brechen sie im sicheren Nordirak auf oder in der sicheren Türkei. Aus der Kriegsnot sind sie da bereits heraus. Wenn sie sich entscheiden, nach Deutschland zu gehen, spielen andere Gründe eine Rolle. Es ist eben angenehmer, Flüchtling in Hannover als in Erbil zu sein.
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  #368  
Old 14.09.2015, 23:03
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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That video was posted tongue in cheek, however I do have to disagree with you on there being no trace of right extremism in Germany. I don't know where you were but the further you venture out into the former DDR you'll find that it's rife there. People greeting each other in private with a raised right hand isn't uncommon.

Which is a shame for moderately conservative Germans. Pegida rose up in the east and there are large elements of neo nazis within this movement. However moderate people who oppose this mass immigration at the moment
need a voice and groups like Pegida provide it for them. However with the Nazi element it's easy for the press and the rest of the political class to dismiss them.
I haven't seen nor experienced that yet. I was in East Berlin, which is not likely a reflection of the rest of Germany. I was standing 90 minutes in line for one of Mustafa's Gemuse Kebab along with other Germans, and it was full of immigrants, many wearing their Islamic head covers.

i've only met Nazis in Switzerland, when I inadvertently walked in on one of their rallies. But instead of chasing me away, and demanding I leave their country, they politely engaged me in conversation on the topic of their concerns regarding the environment. Nothing like how they are typically portrayed in mainstream mdia. They apparently have much more similarities to the Greens than I had imagined.

Anyway, as vehement as the discourse is about Nazis, are they really a threat in Germany? Sounds like they can't even come up for air.
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Old 15.09.2015, 14:52
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I was just in Germany for nearly two weeks and did not find any trace of any existing Nazis. I think this is an old demon in people's minds. Checkpoint Charlie sort of illustrates how the whole country was virtually incarcerated after the Nazis. It has been penalized, gone through rehabilitation, and has paid its dues. Mentioning Nazis when speaking of German culture and values is simply shrillness.

I did learn something about the Germans on this trip. I was dining with a family, and later broached the subject of the immigrants. Their body language and non-verbal communication expressed shock and dismay, but their words parroted glowing statements about all of us getting along and helping each other.

I realized that the Germans are very reserved people who hold two faces. One is for public facing to demonstrate how good of a citizen they are. Th other is much more private, and they don't readily let just anybody know what they are thinking or feeling. It may be along the Sie and Du levels of intimacy. The point is that I don't think these outward displays of their sentiments, and the number of people that show up are an indication of true german sentiments. If anything, they do value outward public perception, and are keen to promote positive citizenship. Does that mean they are inwardly Nazis? I think they are much smarter than that.
Many of my German friends admit in private that they are deeply concerned about what's going on and are fed up with their government and are fed up with the opposition chiming along rather than asking critical questions which is after all the job of opposition. The anger rises to the point of frustration and helplessness. But they wouldn't dare admit that in public. This goes to the point of saying one thing under four eyes and the complete opposite when out on the street or in the bus.

To me it feels almost like slipping back into the old days, whether under the Nazis or the SED, that you didn't dare to say what you think in public because somebody's going to tarnish you with the nazi brush. I always believed that Germany had moved beyond this doublethink but now I see the fear of the government is a great motivator and seems to be returning without people raising a finger to stop it. For example because there might be some neo nazis at a demonstration we won't go ther because we don't want to be in the same boat with them so we'd rather pretend everything is good than be seen with the wrong company. This is of course a trick that is easy to exploit by the press who manage to see neo nazis at any demonstartion they don't approve of.

At the same time, if you ask them about this or point it out to them, there is a strong denial that there can be anything wrong with the system. The state is good and government is good. Germans would never make strong libertarians because this "government is good thing" is so strong in their thinking, and the government would never feed them false or misleading information or put its own interests before those of the population. Even when they are angry with the government, the government is just mistaken or temporarily derailed in their eyes but never part of the problem.

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That video was posted tongue in cheek, however I do have to disagree with you on there being no trace of right extremism in Germany. I don't know where you were but the further you venture out into the former DDR you'll find that it's rife there. People greeting each other in private with a raised right hand isn't uncommon.
Sorry, I have been to the deepest depths of the former DDR and had many a beer in some drinking holes that were pretty much as rough and proletarian as it could get, and people there tend to reveal their true thoughts after they've had a beer more than is good for them.

And I have heard some nasty stuff against foreigners, but I have never ever seen a right arm raised in salute. Methinks you've been watching too much Tatort.

Last edited by amogles; 15.09.2015 at 15:03.
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  #370  
Old 15.09.2015, 16:01
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Sorry, I have been to the deepest depths of the former DDR and had many a beer in some drinking holes that were pretty much as rough and proletarian as it could get, and people there tend to reveal their true thoughts after they've had a beer more than is good for them.

And I have heard some nasty stuff against foreigners, but I have never ever seen a right arm raised in salute. Methinks you've been watching too much Tatort.
This really does happen, between friends of course. Have a watch of this from last weeks Kontraste.

http://www.daserste.de/information/p...erung-102.html
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Old 16.09.2015, 11:46
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Are you serious? Have you ever been a victim of arson? There is already a record of arsons that lead to the death of turkish families in Germany....arson by neo-nazis. They don't do it as a game or communication of despair. They know exactly what they do. There are hundreds of ways to express your disagreement in the right manner but murder is not part of it.
It is a bit of a stretch to speak of murder when somebody sets fire to an empty building that is merely under consideration for housing refugees. The governor of Saxony even called it a cowardly act. If you read Soviet era propaganda, these were the very words the Soviets used to decry any protest action by dissidents. Solzhenitsyn's book was a cowardly publication. Kennedy's actions over the Cuban missile crisis was cowardly leadership.

Meanwhile of course the police arrest people without any evidence other than that they attended a protest a couple of hours before the fire broke out - and had to let them walk for lack of further evidence while politicians complain about those stupid laws that say you can't hold people in prison for no reason . But that sort of arrest isn't cowardly I suppose.
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