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  #21  
Old 16.12.2014, 14:54
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Yeah, but "their own culture" isn't being threatened by Muslims, is it?

Europe is changing, but blaming the 2% (or whatever) of the population who happen to be Muslim for those changes is as stupid as blaming the Jews back in the thirties.

Every generation needs a scapegoat. Muslims are our scapegoat - maybe the next generation will turn on us?
most estimates put the figure at closer to 5-6%, which means Germany's Muslim population would be roughly half the size of Switzerland or Austria. I am no social engineer or even statistician, but I would suspect that 1 in 20 people on the street not conforming to a culture's perceived norms and folkways would have the potential to be perceived as a threat, wouldn't you?

I do not think that comparing the discussion regarding the integration of people from third world Muslim countries into western societies to the treatment of Jews during the first part of the 20th century is helpful. for one thing, the vast majority of those Jews had been living in western societies for several decades, if not centuries. additionally, anti-Semitism was part of much larger problems relating to eugenics, racism, etc., problems which still unfortunately exist today but to a much lesser extent.
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  #22  
Old 16.12.2014, 14:59
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Jewish immigration into Europe took place over hundreds of years, and within that time they were expelled and returned.
...
Just für the records: The Rhenanian Jews were in Germany before the Christians came.
And long before the folks from Germanic migration invaded the country.

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The rapid rise in the number of Muslims in Germany has taken place in a relative blink of an eye. I don't think the two can be compared. Limiting immigration is a far cry from expelling people or death camps.
Besides that also lutheranism did arise in a blink of an eye,


the problem is that one doesn't need death camps for building up an antidemocratic society. Which is what Pegida propagates.
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Old 16.12.2014, 15:04
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Islamic culture is so far removed from the European, and what's more, it's far more visible. If I walk the streets here, no one knows where I'm from.
Medieval Islamic Culture maybe or that practiced by the Taliban in caves, but the majority of asylum seekers coming from from Syria, Iraq etc.. are coming from pretty urbane cultures where the national dress is jeans and a T-shirt. So apart from their skin colour, how else would you know?? A woman wearing a scarf in Germany is more likely than not to have been born there, and this is the problem with this slippery, fascist slope.

Germany probably does need to look at the number of asylum seekers it is taking in, and ensure that their generosity is not causing hardship or undue tensions to established communities. However this is a separate discussion to claiming that Germany is on the verge of turning Muslim.

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comparing an expat to someone who is fleeing their homeland to seek safety and refuge for their family is a little disingenuous, isn't it? I mean, shouldn't there be different standards with respect to the obligation to integrate?
The OP stated people were coming in with 'cultures and beliefs that are often in conflict with that of many Germans'. Which in my mind is similar to the exasperation felt by the Swiss when us Expats behave in a similar way e.g. not bother with the language or local customs, avoid civic duties, earn more than the national average and yet still complain about everything etc..
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Old 16.12.2014, 15:10
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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The OP stated people were coming in with 'cultures and beliefs that are often in conflict with that of many Germans'. Which in my mind is similar to the exasperation felt by the Swiss when us Expats behave in a similar way e.g. not bother with the language or local customs, avoid civic duties, earn more than the national average and yet still complain about everything etc..
fair enough. the Swiss, of course, only have to worry about expats sticking out, they don't have to worry about Muslims sticking out.



though, naturally, they still do.
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Old 16.12.2014, 15:21
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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...but there are also very legitimate questions to be asked about the likelihood of successfully integrating relatively large numbers of peoples coming from cultures that are in many ways inapposite to the cultures into which they are expected to integrate. and, more and more, those questions are being asked not by "right wing radicals" or "facists" but rather by reasonably intelligent and open-minded individuals having a genuine interest in preserving what they consider to be their own culture.
I agree that this conversation needs to take place, taken away from extremists who have malicious intent. The only problem is that EVERYBODY considers themselves to be at the center. A moderate can appear to be an extremist to an extremist. The value of free speech in is rational and intelligent dialog. It should not be prevented and should be encouraged.

I don't think it is in anybody's place to determine that someone's concern is not valid. Let them air it out if they want.
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  #26  
Old 16.12.2014, 15:22
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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t I would suspect that 1 in 20 people on the street not conforming to a culture's perceived norms and folkways would have the potential to be perceived as a threat.
Do you seriously think that there is A, hence ONE culture's perceived norm among Gernan to which they all agree and live by??? Any given group of people will be subdivided by subgroups disagreeing with each other. For Germany, it is of course south/north, catholics/protestants, but also socio-environmentalists vs industrial-reactionary, ostalgia vs hyperliberalism, productivists vs alternative, pro and antireligions etc. Even with no Muslim around.

There is no doubt whatsoever that this movement is an experiment from the neonazi scene to get a bigger crowd together without the usual nationalistic racial part in order to get back to it when they can. When the coffee is too bitter, one serves capuccino to the crowd and one reduces the milk part progressively until everybody drinks black coffee under the name capuccino. It worked in russia under Putin, it worked in the US under Bush, it worked in Japan under Abe... it will work other places too because it's a strategy, not a far-right thing as such.
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Old 16.12.2014, 15:23
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Medieval Islamic Culture maybe or that practiced by the Taliban in caves, but the majority of asylum seekers coming from from Syria, Iraq etc.. are coming from pretty urbane cultures where the national dress is jeans and a T-shirt.
Yes, you're right. The men do wear that at least.
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  #28  
Old 16.12.2014, 15:31
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Isn't the center fulcrum based on the weight of both sides? Or should some authority decide where the center norm is? In the end, its not hooliganism determine these, but the representatives that are elected.
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  #29  
Old 16.12.2014, 15:35
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Do you seriously think that there is A, hence ONE culture's perceived norm among Gernan to which they all agree and live by??? Any given group of people will be subdivided by subgroups disagreeing with each other. For Germany, it is of course south/north, catholics/protestants, but also socio-environmentalists vs industrial-reactionary, ostalgia vs hyperliberalism, productivists vs alternative, pro and antireligions etc. Even with no Muslim around.
yes, I do think that in every western society there are generally-accepted norms with respect to certain foundational matters, including equality under the law, democracy (though obviously there are differences in the execution), and human rights. this does not mean that every single member of each western society has accepted these norms, and it definitely does not mean that those norms are flawlessly executed, but I think it is fair to say that they are generally-accepted, regardless of squabbles with respect to shades of Christianity, region, or less foundational political beliefs such as conservatism vs. liberalism. in fact, they are so generally-accepted that they are almost always codified by law.
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Old 16.12.2014, 15:35
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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What "islamisation"? Muslims make up a tiny minority of people on this continent
I don't know where you have been hiding out the last 10 years but obviously not in cities like Rotterdam, Antwerp, Brussels, Paris etc

I am not going to dig up statistics here but in every major Western European city the muslims will outnumber "locals" pretty soon. This is not fear or ignorance but reality.
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Old 16.12.2014, 15:35
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Yes, you're right. The men do wear that at least.
So do a large majority of the women.

I remember shortly before minaret ban vote, people on the streets of Langenthal (where it all kicked off, I believe) where making comments along the lines of; "What's next, Sharia law?" or "We'll all be forced to wearing veils next"; these people had obviously been listening to some quite twisted rhetoric.
I know quite a few muslims, none of whom want to "Islamify" Europe; I have a feeeling they're quite happy with the relative freedom that a western culture provides. Having said that, I do wish more muslims would speak out against the atrocities being carreid out by the likes of ISIS(L?) and Al Quaeda (sp?), if only as a form of self-preservation.
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  #32  
Old 16.12.2014, 15:37
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I don't know where you have been hiding out the last 10 years but obviously not in cities like Rotterdam, Antwerp, Brussels, Paris etc

I am not going to dig up statistics here but in every major Western European city the muslims will outnumber "locals" pretty soon. This is not fear or ignorance but reality.
Supposition; if you want to convince, let's have some facts and figures, please.
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Old 16.12.2014, 15:38
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Did nobody learn anything from the 20th century?
Yes, the 20th Century taught us a very useful rhetoric technique that prevents us from dealing with questions we don't want to deal with. You just call your opponents fascists, and their arguments immediately become invalid.

Even Hitler would have done it if he had thought of it. But he didn't want to upset his little friend in Italy (even though his arguments were invalid, although he did make the trains run on time).
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  #34  
Old 16.12.2014, 15:42
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I don't know where you have been hiding out the last 10 years but obviously not in cities like Rotterdam, Antwerp, Brussels, Paris etc

I am not going to dig up statistics here but in every major Western European city the muslims will outnumber "locals" pretty soon. This is not fear or ignorance but reality.
I don't think this kind of rhetoric is helpful, and I have spent a fair amount of time in 2 of the 4 cities you listed in just the last couple of months. yes, there are small pockets where you will encounter relatively significant Muslim populations (significant relative to the non-Muslim population), but only in those small pockets and it is hardly overt or threatening. otherwise, those cities look and feel more or less the same as they ever have.
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Old 16.12.2014, 15:43
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

That is just basic logic of concentration. A local Chinatown community will logically have a Chinese majority.
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Old 16.12.2014, 15:48
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Supposition; if you want to convince, let's have some facts and figures, please.
I'm not trying to convince anyone.
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Old 16.12.2014, 15:49
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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So do a large majority of the women.

I remember shortly before minaret ban vote, people on the streets of Langenthal (where it all kicked off, I believe) where making comments along the lines of; "What's next, Sharia law?" or "We'll all be forced to wearing veils next"; these people had obviously been listening to some quite twisted rhetoric.
I know quite a few muslims, none of whom want to "Islamify" Europe; I have a feeeling they're quite happy with the relative freedom that a western culture provides. Having said that, I do wish more muslims would speak out against the atrocities being carreid out by the likes of ISIS(L?) and Al Quaeda (sp?), if only as a form of self-preservation.
You'll never find any statistics but I'm certain the majority of freshly arrived female asylum seekers do not wear jeans and a T-shirt.

I also don't think the majority of Muslim immigrants want convert Europe to Islam. This is an argument about limiting immigration to prevent the growth of Islamic culture due the sheer number new arrivals.
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Old 16.12.2014, 15:54
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I don't think this kind of rhetoric is helpful, and I have spent a fair amount of time in 2 of the 4 cities you listed in just the last couple of months. yes, there are small pockets where you will encounter relatively significant Muslim populations (significant relative to the non-Muslim population), but only in those small pockets and it is hardly overt or threatening. otherwise, those cities look and feel more or less the same as they ever have.
True.

I've lived and owned a house for 10 years in Antwerp. I've seen the city change over the years because of drastic increase of muslim population. I've seen and experienced how they struggle to adapt, and also how they can simply take over part of a city, force their culture and religion upon others and turn a once so peaceful street/area into a piece of crap in no time.

It might as well be that this was one of the underlying reasons for my move to Switzerland. I actually only realize that now that I am here.
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Old 16.12.2014, 15:55
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Besides that also lutheranism did arise in a blink of an eye,
And the 30 years war that resulted from that only lasted 5 minutes. In fact the name was misleadingly applied by the racists who wrote our history books. In that war, nobody got killed or injured at all and it was rainbows every day.

So your mention of Lutheranism was a reminder that the sudden introduction of a new religion into a context in which it didn't exist before is entirely without risk.
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Old 16.12.2014, 15:58
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Having said that, I do wish more muslims would speak out against the atrocities being carreid out by the likes of ISIS(L?) and Al Quaeda (sp?), if only as a form of self-preservation.
1) The overwhelming majority of victims of ISIL and Al Queda have been Muslims themselves

2) Why should moderate, law abiding Muslims be apologists for criminals and madmen who have twisted their faith beyond all recognition. No other collective group is expected to apologise or repeatedly distance themselves from fringe members of their group.

3) What threshold of response are you expecting? Yesterday a coalition of Australian Muslims organisation, worldwide Islamic Leaders, millions of ordinary Muslims in the blogosphere etc.... came out strongly against the gunman and in support of the hostages, and yet I'm sure there are many who would still say Muslims haven't done enough, or they haven't seen much with their eyes

To many Muslims, this old chestnut is as ridiculous as asking Australians to apologise for Rolf Harris, or Americans every time there is a High School Shooting.
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