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  #41  
Old 16.12.2014, 15:58
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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You'll never find any statistics but I'm certain the majority of freshly arrived female asylum seekers do not wear jeans and a T-shirt.

I also don't think the majority of Muslim immigrants want convert Europe to Islam. This is an argument about limiting immigration to prevent the growth of Islamic culture due the sheer number new arrivals.
The newly arrived immigrants often fled war and genuine hardship and are happy to find a bit of peace and be left alone. But its the second and third generation who after failing to integrate turn to radical interpretations of the religion of their parents in hate of the culture that offered them shelter.
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Old 16.12.2014, 16:03
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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The newly arrived immigrants often fled war and genuine hardship and are happy to find a bit of peace and be left alone. But its the second and third generation who after failing to integrate turn to radical interpretations of the religion of their parents in hate of the culture that offered them shelter.
if the German press coverage is any indication, some of the radicalization comes from converts having no Muslim heritage whatsoever.
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  #43  
Old 16.12.2014, 16:06
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lim_population
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  #44  
Old 16.12.2014, 16:32
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe


The Guardian at its best.
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  #45  
Old 16.12.2014, 16:38
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

I don't think the Pegida marches are about ISIL and Al Qaeda. The issues are national. They cite disproportianate Muslim criminality and abuses, incompatibilities with its securalism, and the left wing's censuring of any such expression as cultural insensitivity. Same story as elsewhere.

The question is, sentiments aside, is it true?
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Old 16.12.2014, 16:45
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I don't think the Pegida marches are about ISIL and Al Qaeda. The issues are national. They cite disproportianate Muslim criminality and abuses, incompatibilities with its securalism, and the left wing's censuring of any such expression as cultural insensitivity. Same story as elsewhere.

The question is, sentiments aside, is it true?
Any ethnographers in da house?
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  #47  
Old 16.12.2014, 16:51
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Any ethnographers in da house?
So should the germans not be allowed to ask?
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  #48  
Old 16.12.2014, 16:54
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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So should the germans not be allowed to ask?
Umm.. I was merely suggesting that your questions could be answered using empirical data
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  #49  
Old 16.12.2014, 17:00
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Umm.. I was merely suggesting that your questions could be answered using empirical data
So I think Pediga can be shut up by impartial implementation and adherence to clear laws. Where it gets messy is when a group is given preferential or impartial treatment, due to cultural sensitivities and such. When that happens it tilts the balance of fairness. Set the law, apply it firmly, don't bend it for anybody, then everybody should simply shut up. Nothing to complain about at that point except themselves. The Left and the Media foment a lot of these discontents with their special programs and special treatment.
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Old 16.12.2014, 17:20
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

as if by magic, Tagi is as always right on time.

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/26625703
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  #51  
Old 16.12.2014, 17:28
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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It's comments like this that lead more and more people to join such movements. It's all too easy to dismiss them as fascist. Every year there is half a million net migration into Germany, of which 120,000 are asylum seekers. Is this not excessive? Is it not cause for concern?
No it isn't cause for concern at all: The German population is shrinking as well as aging. The country as well as the economy NEEDS immigration. That many educated younger Germans leave for better jobs in Switzerland and other countries is not helping either... but let's first get some facts:

- the demonstrations are mostly happening in Dresden, which is in Saxony, former Eastern Germany.
- Eastern Germany is the economically poorest part of Germany with high unemployment and few jobs
- it is also the part of Germany with by far the least immigrants. The state has a foreign population of around 2.2% out of which only a fraction is Muslim...

Bottom line: I can take concerns seriously from people living in certain parts of Germanies larger cities. I have myself lived in a place where the Turkish population was so dominant that labels in the local supermarket were in Turkish. If a strong group does not even try to learn the local language and integrate - that's a problem. But the "Pegida" folks are rural bumpkins who most likely not see any Muslims at all in their daily lives - because there simply are none in Eastern Germany. The marches are some valve for a general frustration with politics and society, a bit like a fascist version of occupy...
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  #52  
Old 16.12.2014, 17:34
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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No it isn't cause for concern at all: The German population is shrinking as well as aging. The country as well as the economy NEEDS immigration. That many educated younger Germans leave for better jobs in Switzerland and other countries is not helping either... but let's first get some facts:

- the demonstrations are mostly happening in Dresden, which is in Saxony, former Eastern Germany.
- Eastern Germany is the economically poorest part of Germany with high unemployment and few jobs
- it is also the part of Germany with by far the least immigrants. The state has a foreign population of around 2.2% out of which only a fraction is Muslim...

Bottom line: I can take concerns seriously from people living in certain parts of Germanies larger cities. I have myself lived in a place where the Turkish population was so dominant that labels in the local supermarket were in Turkish. If a strong group does not even try to learn the local language and integrate - that's a problem. But the "Pegida" folks are rural bumpkins who most likely not see any Muslims at all in their daily lives - because there simply are none in Eastern Germany. The marches are some valve for a general frustration with politics and society, a bit like a fascist version of occupy...
Isn't Dresden supposed to be one of the boom cities that has bucked the trend these last couple of years and is now abrim with jobs and opportunities? At least that's the impression the media are creating.
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  #53  
Old 16.12.2014, 19:36
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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And the 30 years war that resulted from that only lasted 5 minutes. In fact the name was misleadingly applied by the racists who wrote our history books. In that war, nobody got killed or injured at all and it was rainbows every day.

So your mention of Lutheranism was a reminder that the sudden introduction of a new religion into a context in which it didn't exist before is entirely without risk.
The view on that war as mainly a religious conflict is outdated for decades (did you ever study history?).


However, the point is that not necessarily a person embracing radical Position does this as a reaction to some real danger. Was like that during the 30ies in Germany. But that is a very bad excuse for antidemocratic attitude or real crimes, unless the reason isn't mental.


P.S. Dresden ist das Tal der Ahnungslosen.


ARD= alles rund um Dresden.
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  #54  
Old 16.12.2014, 22:38
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Isn't Dresden supposed to be one of the boom cities that has bucked the trend these last couple of years and is now abrim with jobs and opportunities? At least that's the impression the media are creating.
Yup - lot of design jobs and very modern VW plant up there. Gorgeous Uni-town. So much for country bumpkins but some just see what they want to...
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Old 16.12.2014, 23:32
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Yup - lot of design jobs and very modern VW plant up there. Gorgeous Uni-town. So much for country bumpkins but some just see what they want to...
That's all great. But not of interest.

"Nur ungefähr 0,1 Prozent der in Sachsen lebenden Menschen sind Muslime - insgesamt also etwa 4000 Menschen. Die bislang letzte Pegida-Demo in Dresden hatte 10.000 Teilnehmer. Auf jeden Muslim in Sachsen kommen also 2,5 Demonstranten, die sich von ihm bedroht fühlen" Spiegel

Only about 0,1 percent of people living in Sachsen are Muslims - a total of about 4000 people. The last Pegida-Demo in Dresden had 10'000 participants. That makes 2,5 demonstrants feeling threatened for every muslim!

So much for blatant populism and racism by the Pegida people.
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Old 16.12.2014, 23:47
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

fear + ignorance --> hate
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  #57  
Old 16.12.2014, 23:48
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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fear + ignorance --> hate
Oh I always thought it's a love-hate relationship
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  #58  
Old 16.12.2014, 23:53
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

This poll indicates a little more than half of Germans sympathizes with Pegida.
http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschla...chland-umfrage

It does not poll like a small minority fringe. But one has to always hold such polls with a certain degree of suspicion. Eurosceptics may just be using this as an opportunity to air their dissatisfaction.

So if Pediga has no sense of Islam or Muslims, as some suggest, then is this purely a media driven hysteria? Mind you, this is not confined to the Dresden area. Cologne has had them, as well as Austria.
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Old 16.12.2014, 23:57
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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if the German press coverage is any indication...
You know Blancho in Switzerland. Well, same strategy. It doesn't mean they are the brains, just the useful idiots.

On another note: the turkish popupation in Germany is so big that they can't be treated as homogenous. There is a middle class with highly religion-neutral beliefs and they won't be moving to Turkey anytime soon as long as the islamists are in power. The CSU on the contrary, puts religion everywhere and forces its christian conservative prejudices on any CDU chancelor. Who is crapping on the German consitution? The answer depends which Turks and which Germans one takes as representative in such generalizations.
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Old 17.12.2014, 01:28
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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That's all great. But not of interest.

"Nur ungefähr 0,1 Prozent der in Sachsen lebenden Menschen sind Muslime - insgesamt also etwa 4000 Menschen. Die bislang letzte Pegida-Demo in Dresden hatte 10.000 Teilnehmer. Auf jeden Muslim in Sachsen kommen also 2,5 Demonstranten, die sich von ihm bedroht fühlen" Spiegel

Only about 0,1 percent of people living in Sachsen are Muslims - a total of about 4000 people. The last Pegida-Demo in Dresden had 10'000 participants. That makes 2,5 demonstrants feeling threatened for every muslim!

So much for blatant populism and racism by the Pegida people.
Before we lose the context, you are responding to a post that was in response to a post that said the people of Dresden are country bumpkins, right? So would you care to explain what the above has to do with that other than changing the topic.
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