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  #101  
Old 17.12.2014, 14:02
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Shouldn't the people themselves be allowed to decide what they want their culture to be? I don't see anything irrational in being suspicious of certain types of change. Isn't that what democracy is supposed to be about, giving people a say in what they want their future to look like?
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These aren't issues of grading a culture, and it is vitriolic to suggest it is. These are questions of cultural compatibilities, and how to co-exist knowing full well that some beliefs and practices are in opposition to each other. What Germans are trying to figure out is if foreigners can be expected to adapt to German values, or will they insist on changing German values.

Should Germans allow the withholding of women's rights if the foreign culture practices it?
Would Germans be prohibited from exercising certain rights if it offends people of foreign cultures?

Some groundwork need to be clearly defined on how to behave when such conflicting issues arise. At the moment, there are no clear cut answers, hence it creates trepidations.
I referred to my earlier post about the fact Germany does need immigrants. So, my understanding that, the country has decided its own future, that it'd partly rely on the contribution of this group of people. And these are the people who have their own culture or were born and raised with other than-German culture. Bringing them in to Germany would obviously mean introducing other culture to the German society, unless the phenomenon of a full cultural assimilation really exists in the real world. Even that term of cultural assimilation sounds patronising, sounds like a one-way street. That's why, the term of cultural integration is often used, as it implies the efforts from the two parties involved.
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  #102  
Old 17.12.2014, 14:15
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I referred to my earlier post about the fact Germany does need immigrants. So, my understanding that, the country has decided its own future, that it'd partly rely on the contribution of this group of people. And these are the people who have their own culture or were born and raised with other than-German culture. Bringing them in to Germany would obviously mean introducing other culture to the German society, unless the phenomenon of a full cultural assimilation really exists in the real world. Even that term of cultural assimilation sounds patronising, sounds like a one-way street. That's why, the term of cultural integration is often used, as it implies the efforts from the two parties involved.

Giving people a choice does not imply that they will always chose the most rational choice on offer. There is nothing in the definition of democracy that says the outcome will be the most intelligent or well thought out. Maybe you think, without immgration Germany is doomed. Maybe that is right. Maybe it isn't. If others have other opinions, what makes you so sure they are wrong and you are right? Shouldn't it be better to put such questions to the democratic test than to pre-empt certain options? Freedom does after all include the freedom to shoot onself in the foot. Freedom of speech does include freedom to say things that are false. But sometimes those who appear to be wrong later turn out to be right, and banning those opinions thus just prevents a viable solution from emerging. East Germany has a tradition of denying that, as in the SED's party song whose chorus was "Die Partei hat immer Recht", sung loudly and without a hint of irony. Look where it brought them.
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Old 17.12.2014, 14:19
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Even that term of cultural assimilation sounds patronising, sounds like a one-way street. That's why, the term of cultural integration is often used, as it implies the efforts from the two parties involved.

Implies to whom? I don't think the Germans see a migrant minority community to be a marriage of equal partners as you suggest. They see them as an adoptation, brought into Germany as a gesture of their humanitarian goodwill, particularly those they are granting asylum to. Or some may see it as a shotgun marriage arranged by politicians. The question is who adapts to whom? These are people who have trouble with other people from their neighboring villages. And when the Germans ask why they have to adapt to a foreign culture, what would you tell them when they never asked for nor wanted it?

What I think they need to do is create a solid framework for how to handle cultural incompatibilities. What they need to inform incoming foreigners of is that Germans eat a lot of pork, drink alcohol until they are wasted, like prostitution brothels, and may even publish caricatures of Mohammed. Can they live peacefully with that, are they sure they want to live there with these people, or will they burn neighborhoods if the Germans behave like Germans?
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  #104  
Old 17.12.2014, 14:34
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I don't see why it'd make it worse. Are you saying the culture of that the immigrants bring along with them is inferior to that of German?
Sure, some people would like to keep their own cultural identity, even though this cultural identity is also the very result of some sort of cultural integration or assimilation in their history.
This not a question of whether the culture is inferior to that German culture, it's a question of whether or not it's compatible. This shouldn't even be up for discussion as Germany is the host country, they and they alone can decide who they let in or not.
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  #105  
Old 17.12.2014, 14:40
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Giving people a choice does not imply that they will always chose the most rational choice on offer. There is nothing in the definition of democracy that says the outcome will be the most intelligent or well thought out. Maybe you think, without immgration Germany is doomed. Maybe that is right. Maybe it isn't. If others have other opinions, what makes you so sure they are wrong and you are right? Shouldn't it be better to put such questions to the democratic test than to pre-empt certain options? Freedom does after all include the freedom to shoot onself in the foot. Freedom of speech does include freedom to say things that are false. But sometimes those who appear to be wrong later turn out to be right, and banning those opinions thus just prevents a viable solution from emerging. East Germany has a tradition of denying that, as in the SED's party song whose chorus was "Die Partei hat immer Recht", sung loudly and without a hint of irony. Look where it brought them.
I get your point. But my point was about something else. I was commenting about the concern of not being able to pass on German culture. My point was, the existence of new culture is only one of the consequences of this immigration. So, when Germany decided (its future) to open up the country for more immigrants, it should have had prepared itself for this.




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Implies to whom? I don't think the Germans see a migrant minority community to be a marriage of equal partners as you suggest. They see them as an adoptation, brought into Germany as a gesture of their humanitarian goodwill, particularly those they are granting asylum to. Or some may see it as a shotgun marriage arranged by politicians. The question is who adapts to whom? These are people who have trouble with other people from their neighboring villages. And when the Germans ask why they have to adapt to a foreign culture, what would you tell them when they never asked for nor wanted it?

What I think they need to do is create a solid framework for how to handle cultural incompatibilities. What they need to inform incoming foreigners of is that Germans eat a lot of pork, drink alcohol until they are wasted, like prostitution brothels, and may even publish caricatures of Mohammed. Can they live peacefully with that, are they sure they want to live there with these people, or will they burn neighborhoods if the Germans behave like Germans?
Have you read my post on this thread? I was clearly commenting about the current permit regime that has changed due to current state in Germany that needs immigration. I particularly talk about immigrants whom the country need. Well, that doesn't mean the Germans are aware of it. Maybe the German government should tell them loudly.
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  #106  
Old 17.12.2014, 15:06
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Have you read my post on this thread? I was clearly commenting about the current permit regime that has changed due to current state in Germany that needs immigration. I particularly talk about immigrants whom the country need. Well, that doesn't mean the Germans are aware of it. Maybe the German government should tell them loudly.
I see, a different topic. I don't think I read about EU FMOP on Pediga's manifesto, although they are probably many of the same set of characters. I recall a poll showing most Germans understand they need immigrants for their economic growth.
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  #107  
Old 17.12.2014, 15:19
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Interesting about the Pegida phenomenon is that German media, at least as far as I can see, are pretty much unanimous in opposing them and are pulling all the stops to drive home the point, for example by reporting on the support and sympathy they are getting from the football hooligan corner and the far right. To me that seems rather like shooting the messenger. If they wanted to treat the political left in the same manner they could easily have found plenty of shadier charaters giving some level of support and sympathy (in his younger days, Joschka Fischer threw bricks at policemen during riots and many of the founding fathers of the German Greens were in favour of legalizing paedophilia, but all this is reported in a much softer and more apologetic tone), but the left-leaning media don't really believe in equality of criticism. Political discourse lives from both sides being given a fair hearing rather and in the present cilimate this fairness is being denied. This can either result in Pegida eventually going away for lack of oxygen, or in them benefitting from the underdog card and becoming stronger for it.
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  #108  
Old 17.12.2014, 15:40
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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but the left-leaning media don't really believe in equality of criticism.
German state TV is unashamedly left wing
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  #109  
Old 17.12.2014, 18:11
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Shouldn't it be better to put such questions to the democratic test than to pre-empt certain options? Freedom does after all include the freedom to shoot onself in the foot.
While Germany is not a direct democracy as Switzerland is the country easily within the top few percent when it comes to civil rights and democracy. If people wanted to elect a Blocher type bloke would nothing stop them from doing so - in fact did a guy called Stoiber a few years ago give it a try and lost. The simple reality is that the German electorate is far more progressive leaning than the Swiss... but the few thousand pegida people will of course claim that all the others are just brainwashed by the mainstream media. So democracy does not work for them...

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Interesting about the Pegida phenomenon is that German media, at least as far as I can see, are pretty much unanimous in opposing them and are pulling all the stops to drive home the point, for example by reporting on the support and sympathy they are getting from the football hooligan corner and the far right. To me that seems rather like shooting the messenger. If they wanted to treat the political left in the same manner they could easily have found plenty of shadier charaters giving some level of support and sympathy (in his younger days, Joschka Fischer threw bricks at policemen during riots and many of the founding fathers of the German Greens were in favour of legalizing paedophilia, but all this is reported in a much softer and more apologetic tone), but the left-leaning media don't really believe in equality of criticism. Political discourse lives from both sides being given a fair hearing rather and in the present cilimate this fairness is being denied. This can either result in Pegida eventually going away for lack of oxygen, or in them benefitting from the underdog card and becoming stronger for it.
You sound like Fox news meeting Weltwoche and you seem to follow German news rather selectively - the left wing gets the exact same level of scrutiny. Just read up the discussions in September on the first state president from "die Linke"... that was easily more aggressive in tone than the pegida reports.
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Old 17.12.2014, 18:47
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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While Germany is not a direct democracy as Switzerland is the country easily within the top few percent when it comes to civil rights and democracy. If people wanted to elect a Blocher type bloke would nothing stop them from doing so - in fact did a guy called Stoiber a few years ago give it a try and lost. The simple reality is that the German electorate is far more progressive leaning than the Swiss... but the few thousand pegida people will of course claim that all the others are just brainwashed by the mainstream media. So democracy does not work for them...
If it was that simple, then I wonder why the whole establishment all the way up to Frau Merkel herself are getting their knickers in a twist and rolling out all the Vorurteile about backward Ossis (Frau Merkel of course being one of the good Ossis). You know, it's not really part of her routine to provide commentary on random demos by random groups across the country.

No, the political establishment and press in Germany are not in the habit of shitting themselves for no reason. They are shitting themselves because they fear this thing could really fly.

For your info, polls show the Germans would have accepted the Minaret ban with a clearer majority than the Swiss.

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You sound like Fox news meeting Weltwoche
As I said, just throw mud at the messenger.

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the left wing gets the exact same level of scrutiny. Just read up the discussions in September on the first state president from "die Linke"... that was easily more aggressive in tone than the pegida reports.
Sounded more like pro-forma condemnation to me. You can't really talk about shock when establishment parties (including Mrs Merkel's own coalition partner) are supporting the new president's coalition.

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  #111  
Old 17.12.2014, 19:38
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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No, the political establishment and press in Germany are not in the habit of shitting themselves for no reason. They are shitting themselves because they fear this thing could really fly.
Anything with far-right potential is taken seriously inGermany. It's not the first time. There were the Republikaner, recently the NPD, but also racist holiganism... German politicians make a big deal of the slightest sign of extremism. And becuse of history and RAF, the left extremist undergo the same scrutiny.
It does not matter one bit whether a movement has potential or not, Germans don't speculate how dangerous it might become, they treat all extrmism as dangerous as such. They are Kantian, not Benthamian.
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  #112  
Old 17.12.2014, 21:28
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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German state TV is unashamedly left wing


NO the German media is NOT left-wing and to parts even rather right-wing
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  #113  
Old 17.12.2014, 21:46
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

An anti-immigrants movements which is strongest in one of the most "foreigner-free" areas of Germany, lead by a criminal condemned in the past for burglary and drug-dealing...

There might be "ordinary people" concerned with the negative effects of immigration in this movement, but to me it's mostly a bunch of losers, probably most of them on Harz IV benefits (that is, their alcohol-fueled lifestyle is subsidized by the other German taxpayers, including foreign-born taxpayers).

Speaking of closet-nazis...why is an organization like Stille Hilfe allowed to operate?
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  #114  
Old 17.12.2014, 22:10
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Just my 2 cent worths here.

My friends in Thüringen say that Thüringen has now overtaken several West German Bundesländer including Niedersachsen in terms of pro capita GDP.
...
You really should worry about "facts" you state, again:


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_(D...nd)#Wirtschaft


However, I doubt the link between eastern German poverty and anti-democratic way of thinking.
You have that trash also in richer parts of German, outside Saxony (btw. NPD in Dresden got something like 2.4% in the last elections), and in other countries, too.
Still, it's trash.
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Old 18.12.2014, 04:13
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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  #116  
Old 18.12.2014, 11:50
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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An anti-immigrants movements which is strongest in one of the most "foreigner-free" areas of Germany, lead by a criminal condemned in the past for burglary and drug-dealing...
Guilt by association?

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There might be "ordinary people" concerned with the negative effects of immigration in this movement, but to me it's mostly a bunch of losers, probably most of them on Harz IV benefits (that is, their alcohol-fueled lifestyle is subsidized by the other German taxpayers, including foreign-born taxpayers).
Got it. They're all unemployed Ossi Untermenschen who eat squirrels and marry their sisters and that makes their opinions invalid. Maybe we should go back to the days when only rich people with rich friends had the vote. Things were so much better then.
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Old 18.12.2014, 12:05
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Anything with far-right potential is taken seriously inGermany. It's not the first time. There were the Republikaner, recently the NPD, but also racist holiganism... German politicians make a big deal of the slightest sign of extremism. And becuse of history and RAF, the left extremist undergo the same scrutiny.
It does not matter one bit whether a movement has potential or not, Germans don't speculate how dangerous it might become, they treat all extrmism as dangerous as such. They are Kantian, not Benthamian.
I think one has to discriminate between grandstanding and shitting one's pants. People like Möllemann and Sarrazin were caught out saying naughty things and this gave all the rest of the establisment plenty of opportunity to speak grand words of condemnation and Godwinise political discussions, but changed absolutely nothing and didn't need to because nobody believed that either Möllemann or Sarrazin were a threat to anything in the bigger picture of things other than maybe giving the Fasnachtsredner something to "doo-daa" about.

The RAF were just a bunch of rich kids with guns. They managed to rock the boat and make some waves, but they were lightyears away from being able to stage a coup or start a civil war or anything. And again, despite all the grandstanding and finger pointing, I don't think intelligent Germans have any illusions about this.

Some guys marching in Dresden are not a danger either, and should in hindsight maybe have been better ignored than declared dangerous. But the response has been somewhat telling.
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  #118  
Old 18.12.2014, 14:36
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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NO the German media is NOT left-wing and to parts even rather right-wing
I said STATE TV. Can you name even one right wing show found on either ARD or ZDF?
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Old 18.12.2014, 14:57
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

All I can say is that in Berlin it is not allowed to have Christmas decoration in public places any more and the "Weihnachtsmarkt" had to be renamed as "Wintermarkt" so that people of different believes will not be offended. So is it a surprise that people demonstrate if these traditions are taken away from them?
In Wuppertal a so-called Sharia Police was actively trying to prevent young people from entering clubs and discos, there are radical preachers who openly promote murder of their opponents, who use democracy and the legal system to overthrow it and they say so. I believe it's those people that the demonstrations are against, not the refugees from war or oppressive systems.
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Old 18.12.2014, 15:09
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All I can say is that in Berlin it is not allowed to have Christmas decoration in public places any more and the "Weihnachtsmarkt" had to be renamed as "Wintermarkt" so that people of different believes will not be offended.

http://www.weihnachteninberlin.de/weihnachtsmaerkte/


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