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  #121  
Old 18.12.2014, 15:17
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

The one I was referring to was the one in Berlin Kreuzberg.

http://www.pi-news.net/2014/09/gunna...markt-heissen/
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  #122  
Old 18.12.2014, 15:32
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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While Germany is not a direct democracy as Switzerland is the country easily within the top few percent when it comes to civil rights and democracy.
You do know that Germany is just about the only country in the world where being Verfassungsfeindlich is a crime that can send you to prison, ie it is forbidden to dislike the constitution.
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  #123  
Old 18.12.2014, 15:44
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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The one I was referring to was the one in Berlin Kreuzberg.

http://www.pi-news.net/2014/09/gunna...markt-heissen/
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That doesn't sound like a very Islamic name.


Perhaps, rather than picking on Muslims, these protesters should march against the rise of secular intolerance. They might find quite a few Muslims marching alongside them.
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  #124  
Old 18.12.2014, 15:51
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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You do know that Germany is just about the only country in the world where being Verfassungsfeindlich is a crime that can send you to prison, ie it is forbidden to dislike the constitution.
Yes and probably the only one where you can pass a driving test without speaking a single word of the country's language.

http://www.fahrschule.de/fahren_lernen/Tipp22index.html
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  #125  
Old 18.12.2014, 15:55
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Perhaps, rather than picking on Muslims, these protesters should march against the rise of secular intolerance. They might find quite a few Muslims marching alongside them.
Or even better, march against that common foe, the Jew

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  #126  
Old 18.12.2014, 16:53
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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  #127  
Old 18.12.2014, 17:05
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Or even better, march against that common foe, the Jew

Hehe, this reminds me of when I was in Libya before Gaddafi got lynched. They really loved my German colleagues there, I think the school curriculum must be somewhat different to Western Europe. They really thought Hitler was a good guy.

The vast majority of Muslims are not this extreme.
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  #128  
Old 18.12.2014, 17:16
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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The vast majority of Muslims are not this extreme.
Is extremism a belief, a badge one wears, or just happen to be a mood one wakes up to on certain days?
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  #129  
Old 18.12.2014, 17:40
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Is extremism a belief, a badge one wears, or just happen to be a mood one wakes up to on certain days?
What I meant was that the majority of Muslims don't go about preaching hate in western countries. I don't really get your question tbh. This thread is about the influence of Islamic migrants on Germany and the risk they pose to it's culture. I think extremism shouldn't be used as an argument to reduce immigration as clearly most Muslims aren't like this. I think the near incompatibility between the two cultures, the increased numbers entering the country and the burden on Germany's state are far better arguments to use.
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  #130  
Old 18.12.2014, 17:51
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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The one I was referring to was the one in Berlin Kreuzberg.

http://www.pi-news.net/2014/09/gunna...markt-heissen/
AFAIK, Berlin Kreuzberg hosts the largest Turkish community in the country.
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  #131  
Old 18.12.2014, 18:30
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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The vast majority of Muslims are not this extreme.
It always surprises me why this statement needs to get repeated when discussing Muslims.

When you discuss football fans, or gun owners, or people who have dangerous dogs, and you needed to point this, people would think you had issues. Why is it that when it comes to Muslims that this needs to be said at all?
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  #132  
Old 18.12.2014, 19:26
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Some guys marching in Dresden are not a danger either, and should in hindsight maybe have been better ignored than declared dangerous. But the response has been somewhat telling.
Would you have the same opinion if some religious extremists would march in say Dresden doing the same s**t as Pegida?

Just to be clear as usually one needs to explain even the obvious here - I for one hate any kind of extremism. Don't see why Pegida should be ignored.

Last edited by greenmount; 18.12.2014 at 20:58. Reason: add
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  #133  
Old 19.12.2014, 03:40
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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You do know that Germany is just about the only country in the world where being Verfassungsfeindlich is a crime that can send you to prison, ie it is forbidden to dislike the constitution.
You've heard it from other people before in this thread, but once again: check your sources. You are constantly spreading uninformed half-truths.

It is not a crime to dislike the constitution at all. 90% or so of the constitution are constantly changing with the way society evolves. However, the founders of the country have after the experiences of the Weimar Republik before WW2 decided to define limits: There are some fundamentals summed up as "free and democratic basis" which cannot be changed. Not by the government or any other force. It is my duty as a citizen to fight anyone who tries to make Germany a non-democratic state.
You can think what you want in Germany, but if you start acting or call for actions publicly does the country have the tools to stop you. That's why the Islamist are more careful in Germany than in the UK... but it is predominantly a law to protect the people from the own government turning rogue as the Nazis did.

I am pretty sure most Americans would love to have the same law protecting their corroding civil rights...
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  #134  
Old 19.12.2014, 07:55
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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You've heard it from other people before in this thread, but once again: check your sources. You are constantly spreading uninformed half-truths.

It is not a crime to dislike the constitution at all. 90% or so of the constitution are constantly changing with the way society evolves. However, the founders of the country have after the experiences of the Weimar Republik before WW2 decided to define limits: There are some fundamentals summed up as "free and democratic basis" which cannot be changed. Not by the government or any other force. It is my duty as a citizen to fight anyone who tries to make Germany a non-democratic state.
You can think what you want in Germany, but if you start acting or call for actions publicly does the country have the tools to stop you. That's why the Islamist are more careful in Germany than in the UK... but it is predominantly a law to protect the people from the own government turning rogue as the Nazis did.

I am pretty sure most Americans would love to have the same law protecting their corroding civil rights...
Well, I'm not so sure about that, and not specifically about Americans. I think many people would see this thing as undemocratic, freedom obstructing, as censorship, you name it. Their capacity of sensing the danger of extremism is heavily biased or preconditioned, if it doesn't affect them or it's unlikely to affect them it doesn't exist.
You might believe it's an excellent thing but I doubt everyone thinks the same way. I guess we'd have to admit that some specific individuals need a platform of some sort, being a march through town, demonstrations, media, etc.
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  #135  
Old 19.12.2014, 09:52
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I am pretty sure most Americans would love to have the same law protecting their corroding civil rights...
I don't see how that protects rights. That looks like it denies rights, particularly free speech and freedom of assembly. But I could see why Germans would impose that on themselves, particularly as contrition for its WWII history.

As for loving the law, ehh.. I don't think I mind the Germans imposing it on themselves.
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  #136  
Old 19.12.2014, 11:05
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Well, I'm not so sure about that, and not specifically about Americans. I think many people would see this thing as undemocratic, freedom obstructing, as censorship, you name it. Their capacity of sensing the danger of extremism is heavily biased or preconditioned, if it doesn't affect them or it's unlikely to affect them it doesn't exist.
You might believe it's an excellent thing but I doubt everyone thinks the same way. I guess we'd have to admit that some specific individuals need a platform of some sort, being a march through town, demonstrations, media, etc.
Preconditioned is the right word.

The entire constitutional self-protection thing is taylored and optimzed on one learning example from the past. If this were a neural network, you would say it is dangerously if not fatally over-optimizied. Thus symbols and other stuff of the nazi party are banned (yes, before anybody gets pedantic, with certain loopholes such as pictures in history books). So should ever an extremist party arise again, and they were to use the precise same symbols and were to have a leader who looked exactly like Adolf Hitler, the legal framework would be pretty well set up to stop him quickly and efficiently in a perfect Pavlovian manner. But the likelihood of that happening is small. The system is far less well set up to recognise or prevent anti-liberty tendencies in general. Also teaching in German schools and documentaries of German TV are very good at discussing Naziism as a symptom and showing all the evil things they did, but are very cautious to even touch on root causes or discuss the phenomenon on a more meta level. In the old DDR this was even worse than in the old or new BRD. Especially, a lot of Germans and this backed by the state TV, think old Ben F was so utterly wrong when he said "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"

I have yet to meet any libertarian-minded American by the way who thought the German consititution was a model.

As for radical Islam not being able to take root in Germany, didn't some of the 9/11 terrorsits have German connections?

Last edited by amogles; 19.12.2014 at 11:38.
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  #137  
Old 19.12.2014, 11:09
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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AFAIK, Berlin Kreuzberg hosts the largest Turkish community in the country.
The Turks are on the whole more laid back in their religious views than most Muslim countries. Also, although they are majority culturally or nominally Musilm, the percentage who regularly attend a mosque is probably lower than for other mulism countries of origin.
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  #138  
Old 19.12.2014, 12:21
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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As for radical Islam not being able to take root in Germany, didn't some of the 9/11 terrorsits have German connections?
True, you never hear this mentioned on German state TV.
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  #139  
Old 19.12.2014, 12:32
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Just because you don't see and hear about them, it belies their existence. Which is one aspect of free speech and freedom of expression I like. It's not so much what people say with their free speech. A lot of it is odious. Rather, at least we know where they stand.

That is one aspect of the SVP's poster I think serves a useful purpose. It allows certain groups a platform to vent their sentiments. By doing so, we know where they are, and they are addressed and moderated in the process. Without that, they'll go underground and plot insidiously.

In the US, you rarely hear hate speech, until the room is cleared of all the other 'kinds' of individuals.
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  #140  
Old 19.12.2014, 13:35
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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True, you never hear this mentioned on German state TV.
I remember well that I heard it on German TV.
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