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  #141  
Old 19.12.2014, 14:16
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Just because you don't see and hear about them, it belies their existence. Which is one aspect of free speech and freedom of expression I like. It's not so much what people say with their free speech. A lot of it is odious. Rather, at least we know where they stand.

That is one aspect of the SVP's poster I think serves a useful purpose. It allows certain groups a platform to vent their sentiments. By doing so, we know where they are, and they are addressed and moderated in the process. Without that, they'll go underground and plot insidiously.
To play the devil's advocate here, the other side of the coin is that free speech can shift people's perception of normality. Thus in a strictly controlled environment, individuals with extreme views may consider themsleves to be absolute minorities. As free speech alows other to say things that resonate with them, it makes it easier for them to join forces and network. The DDR basically survived by preaching that the vast majority of the population loved Erich Honnecker and the SED even though this had ceased to be true a long time ago. Opinion polls, if they existed at all, were kept secret, elections were manipulated. Only the Stasi had any idea what people really thought. So it was only when millions of individuals realized they were not freak exceptions but the suppressed norm, that they could step out onto the street and bring about change.

The US system may encorage people to wait until "certain people" have left the room before they speak their mind. But this may not necessarily be dishonesty but also pragmatism. You don't want to have to start arguing with people who disagree with you at every juncture. Part of agreeing to disagree is to just avoid certain topics with certain people and thinking what they don't know won't hurt them. But politicians do speak their views and meetings can be freely held in support of these views and these views can be tested in primaries and the like, so the potential a certain idea has can easily be gauged and made visible and the state is safe as long as these ideas remain confined to certain minorities.

But by forcing opinions into hiding, you basically create a situation where you cannot know how many people really subscribe to that point of view and this means the state must be more fearful of unexpected change. This is in my view the reason countries such as Germany need to be so heavy handed and the entire political establishment and press need to bleat "four legs good, two legs bad" as loud as they possibly can. It's all about hedging against the monster they've driven into hiding and whose real size they have consequently no idea about.

Last edited by amogles; 19.12.2014 at 14:26.
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  #142  
Old 19.12.2014, 14:48
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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AFAIK, Berlin Kreuzberg hosts the largest Turkish community in the country.
The Turkish community of Berlin is the second largest in the world only eclipsed by Istanbul. There are more Turks in Berlin than in Ankara.

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The Turks are on the whole more laid back in their religious views than most Muslim countries. Also, although they are majority culturally or nominally Musilm, the percentage who regularly attend a mosque is probably lower than for other mulism countries of origin.
That's true in Turkey. Especially in the parts tourist visit along the coast and the major cities. Turks in Germany come mostly from the Eastern part of the country which is frankly very rural, very religious and very backward in any cultural aspect. There are no honour killings in Istanbul, but there were in Germany... that's why Erdogan can fill stadiums when he visits Germany - the type of people that vote for him are the same that emigrate.
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  #143  
Old 19.12.2014, 15:30
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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The US system may encorage people to wait until "certain people" have left the room before they speak their mind. But this may not necessarily be dishonesty but also pragmatism. You don't want to have to start arguing with people who disagree with you at every juncture.
I agree. Words can set the world on fire, especially when used clumsily at the wrong place and time. The key to rights is responsibility. Its not a good idea to exercise rights without accepting responsibility for them. Where there are no consequences, you'll find abuses of rights. But when someone exercise a right, and take full responsibility for its consequences, then it is fair.



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That's true in Turkey. Especially in the parts tourist visit along the coast and the major cities. Turks in Germany come mostly from the Eastern part of the country which is frankly very rural, very religious and very backward in any cultural aspect. There are no honour killings in Istanbul, but there were in Germany... that's why Erdogan can fill stadiums when he visits Germany - the type of people that vote for him are the same that emigrate.
Same thing we see in America. Immigrants are not typically those who come from the established elite classes of the countries they come from. In fact, they are often the 'tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free' from their former countries.

I truly love the immigration I have seen in America. They bring so much energy, ambition and value into society. I have often seen them surpass those who were born there in achievement, within the same generation. Most people who don't really know America think its patriotism come from whites born there. Those who were born there are more often slackers, and grumble about their stake in life. The ones who have come through distress and hardship, then found their peace and prosperity in America are often more patriotic and protective of America, because they've seen and lived out what it is about. They understand the privilege.

I'm not so sure about immigration in Europe so far. Too often, I get the sense immigrants here feel it is their right to be here, and not a privilege that has been granted to them. I hear too much about the shortcomings of their life here, and the host culture, instead of their opportunities. I hear more expressions of sentiments of being victimized, instead of sentiments of appreciation for the privilege or opportunities.
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  #144  
Old 19.12.2014, 16:50
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I'm not so sure about immigration in Europe so far. Too often, I get the sense immigrants here feel it is their right to be here, and not a privilege that has been granted to them. I hear too much about the shortcomings of their life here, and the host culture, instead of their opportunities. I hear more expressions of sentiments of being victimized, instead of sentiments of appreciation for the privilege or opportunities.
I think it also depends on who you talk to. The Sikhs in the UK for example are very much about appreciating the opportunities that were offered to them rather than highlighting the shortcomings. You very seldom hear a Sikh grumble about how he was done in by racism or denied an opportunity. Instead, they take their civil responsibilities seriously and contribute to society, not just fiscally but also through their human contribution. As a consequence, many have indeed done very well and risen into the middle class. Ditto for the Poles. Sadly, there are many groups who prefer to fall into some sort of lethargy based on blaming others and seeing only their own entitlement without seeing their duties. Group dynamics play an important role.
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  #145  
Old 02.01.2015, 14:57
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Cologne Cathedral to switch off lights to protest at anti-muslim Pegida march scheduled for Monday.
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  #146  
Old 10.01.2015, 00:31
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

I love the irony: who is the biggest employer in Dresden?

Well it's a chip manufacturer called Globafoundries which belongs to the very muslim sheikh Waleed Al Mokarrab Al Muhairi owner through his investment company ATIC.

Made my day.
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  #147  
Old 10.01.2015, 08:08
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I love the irony: who is the biggest employer in Dresden?

Well it's a chip manufacturer called Globafoundries which belongs to the very muslim sheikh Waleed Al Mokarrab Al Muhairi owner through his investment company ATIC.

Made my day.
Love it... just to make sure there is no misperception:


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  #148  
Old 10.01.2015, 09:49
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Something tells me the anti-Pegida marchers are going to be somewhat thin on the ground next week.
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  #149  
Old 13.01.2015, 02:39
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Pediga march in Dresden swelled to 25,000, but estimated of sum of all anti-Pediga marches is 100,000 across many cities.

Pediga appears to have arrived in Switzerland through a former PNOS personality:
http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/sto...hweiz-23266955

Interesting how 43% of his Facebook Likes are from India. Can one buy Facebook friends offshore?

Juso promises to outnumber the first Swiss Pediga march.
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  #150  
Old 13.01.2015, 03:55
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Can one buy Facebook friends offshore?
Yes. It is a shockingly normal marketing practice these days.
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  #151  
Old 13.01.2015, 08:29
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Something tells me the anti-Pegida marchers are going to be somewhat thin on the ground next week.
Wrong again
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  #152  
Old 13.01.2015, 09:01
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Wrong again
Perhaps. I think the political pressure, accusations of racism and massive media campaign have played a big roll in the numbers coming out for counter marches. The coming weeks will be interesting. Pegida is also growing in numbers with the largest turn out for their march last night. I wonder if the opposition will remain as committed in the long term. Pegida are refining their manifesto and trying to reach out to all those disillusioned with the "political elite". It seems the majority of its supporters just want someone to hear their concerns that immigration is a problem.
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  #153  
Old 13.01.2015, 10:20
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Pediga won't be successful in Switzerland due to

1. It's of German origin.
2. It's support from radical groups including neo-nazis and Pnos.
3. Leading Swiss supporters of Pediga have already been "outed" for their dubious backgrounds.
4. The Swiss have direct democracy, which is the accepted route of showing the need for change.

Last edited by olygirl; 13.01.2015 at 10:37.
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  #154  
Old 13.01.2015, 10:37
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Did anyone watch Panorama on BBC last night? It was focusing on the rise of extreme but non-violent Islam in the UK and spoke with a number of Muslims associated with liberal, tolerant muslim organisations such as the Deen Institute, Inspire and British Muslim TV. All interviewed were equally concerned with the the rise of extreme islamism and were trying to promote the idea that the majority of british muslims did not susbscribe to such views, yet their popularity was on the rise.

Unfortunately, such voices do not seem to get much exposure; it is much easier to focus on the extreme minority, which in turn gives rise to such organisations as EDL and Pegida.
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  #155  
Old 13.01.2015, 10:45
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

These marches are just an outcome of people not being able to have an open and honest conversation, therefore not feeling represented in the democracy. Its a mistake to simply ignore and malign Pediga. The Pediga platform is wrong on a number of levels, but they will never come to that conclusion without the conversation/education. Holding such a dialog could easily defuse Pediga.

There is common ground between tolerant Muslims and Pediga.
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  #156  
Old 13.01.2015, 10:51
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Pegida are refining their manifesto and trying to reach out to all those disillusioned with the "political elite". It seems the majority of its supporters just want someone to hear their concerns that immigration is a problem.
Did you actually read that "manifesto"? It's so vague that I, a rather left leaning and strong opposer of Pegida, can agree to basically all their demands. Because that manifesto is really just banal hot air. Problem is that those demands have nearly nothing to do with the name of the organisation or the perceived growth of Islam. They are talking about some minor details of the legislation around refugees and that they want basic democratic votes on topics as in Switzerland. Not really anything on limiting immigration as the discussions in Switzerland. Nothing on Islam.

So a small summary from the manifesto:
- Pegida is strongly for human rights including refugees. - I find it odd to start the demands of a protest group like this, but it is their first point.
- Pegida wants refugees to be treated better than now and change the refugee process in some details.
- Pegida wants all EU countries to accept refugees to the same level based on some formula - apparently do they think Germany pays too much...
- Pegida wants more money for the police force
- Pegida wants the government to "utilise the current laws in the areas of asylum and immigration" - without specifying where the government is not doing it's job.
- Pegida wants criminal refugees and immigrants to get thrown out - not really a new idea to anyone living in Switzerland.
- Public votes
- Against woman-hating radical Muslims but for well integrated Muslims (?!)
- for sexual freedom (??! I am translating literally and the manifesto has no context what they are getting at...)
- for the protection of our christian culture
- against weapon proliferation to the PKK
- against "gender mainstreaming" (the feminist concept to use a gender neutral language vs the traditional German which is grammatically dominantly male)
- against radicals of all sorts
- against hate preachers

I am not adding any weird juxtaposition - their agenda really is that confuse. At the same time do the leaders refuse any open and direct debate - which is the basis for democracy. They are basically "against it" but are neither able to explain what "it" really is or willing to explain how they want Germany to change.
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  #157  
Old 13.01.2015, 11:03
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Did you actually read that "manifesto"? It's so vague that I, a rather left leaning and strong opposer of Pegida, can agree to basically all their demands. Because that manifesto is really just banal hot air. Problem is that those demands have nearly nothing to do with the name of the organisation or the perceived growth of Islam. They are talking about some minor details of the legislation around refugees and that they want basic democratic votes on topics as in Switzerland. Not really anything on limiting immigration as the discussions in Switzerland. Nothing on Islam.

So a small summary from the manifesto:
- Pegida is strongly for human rights including refugees. - I find it odd to start the demands of a protest group like this, but it is their first point.
- Pegida wants refugees to be treated better than now and change the refugee process in some details.
- Pegida wants all EU countries to accept refugees to the same level based on some formula - apparently do they think Germany pays too much...
- Pegida wants more money for the police force
- Pegida wants the government to "utilise the current laws in the areas of asylum and immigration" - without specifying where the government is not doing it's job.
- Pegida wants criminal refugees and immigrants to get thrown out - not really a new idea to anyone living in Switzerland.
- Public votes
- Against woman-hating radical Muslims but for well integrated Muslims (?!)
- for sexual freedom (??! I am translating literally and the manifesto has no context what they are getting at...)
- for the protection of our christian culture
- against weapon proliferation to the PKK
- against "gender mainstreaming" (the feminist concept to use a gender neutral language vs the traditional German which is grammatically dominantly male)
- against radicals of all sorts
- against hate preachers

I am not adding any weird juxtaposition - their agenda really is that confuse. At the same time do the leaders refuse any open and direct debate - which is the basis for democracy. They are basically "against it" but are neither able to explain what "it" really is or willing to explain how they want Germany to change.
"Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe" - what does this actually mean?
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  #158  
Old 13.01.2015, 11:24
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

This thread reminds me of this

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Old 13.01.2015, 11:26
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Pediga march in Dresden swelled to 25,000, but estimated of sum of all anti-Pediga marches is 100,000 across many cities.
I heard that in Leipzig they are banning the Pegida marchers from carrying Mohammed caricatures. The irony.
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Old 13.01.2015, 11:34
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I heard that in Leipzig they are banning the Pegida marchers from carrying Mohammed caricatures. The irony.
Sure, you "heard"

Keep up.

Edit: Gets even better. From the article above:
"A spokesman for the city said the ban had been imposed by mutual agreement between organisers and the local public order office. "

Bloody brilliant. Agree to not show the caricatures, then claim it was "banned". Gin up the grievance machine.
But but! Only governments and the media lie
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