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  #161  
Old 13.01.2015, 11:36
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Pediga won't be successful in Switzerland due to

1. It's of German origin.
2. It's support from radical groups including neo-nazis and Pnos.
3. Leading Swiss supporters of Pediga have already been "outed" for their dubious backgrounds.
4. The Swiss have direct democracy, which is the accepted route of showing the need for change.
5. Normally extreme right-wing organizations only flourish in the abscence of more mainstream right-wing parties. Thus in Switzerland SVP basically killed off the likes of PNOS, SD, etc. In the UK the fall of BNP is linked to the rise of UKIP. In France there have been various attempts to establish movements to the right of Front National but they never got much traction. In Germany wierdos and fringe groups have a carneval because there is no viable moderate but outspoken right wing force they need to compete with. Now if something like the CSU could be expaned over all of Germany ...
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  #162  
Old 13.01.2015, 11:38
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Sure, you "heard"

Keep up.
To lift a ban you first have to have a ban in place.
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  #163  
Old 13.01.2015, 11:44
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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This thread reminds me of this

thanks for posting this, but how so?
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  #164  
Old 13.01.2015, 11:45
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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To lift a ban you first have to have a ban in place.
Again, keep up, and do read the article before rushing to post clever rebuttals.

According to the article, the city spokesman says organisers and the city had an agreement not to show the caricatures, which was then promptly portrayed as a "ban" by Legida. Of course, only governments and the media can lie, not a "We the people" movement.

There is nothing in the German constitution that would allow Leipzig to impose such a ban.
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  #165  
Old 13.01.2015, 11:51
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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thanks for posting this, but how so?
I was on about page 4 when it occurred to me.

As the thread was a bit like that room, a discussion about the extreme fringe of Islam but with constant rebuttals of a peaceful majority / not a big problem for the continent.

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Again, keep up, and do read the article before rushing to post clever rebuttals.

According to the article, the city spokesman says organisers and the city had an agreement not to show the caricatures, which was then promptly portrayed as a "ban" by Legida. Of course, only governments and the media can lie, not a "We the people" movement.

There is nothing in the German constitution that would allow Leipzig to impose such a ban.
Hahaha so you're getting your facts and truth from the media which you assume to be telling the truth? Which why wouldn't it, not like different media outlets have political allegiance or backing I suppose. I wonder what side that publication leans to.
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  #166  
Old 13.01.2015, 11:52
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Again, keep up, and do read the article before rushing to post clever rebuttals.

According to the article, the city spokesman says organisers and the city had an agreement not to show the caricatures, which was then promptly portrayed as a "ban" by Legida. Of course, only governments and the media can lie, not a "We the people" movement.

There is nothing in the German constitution that would allow Leipzig to impose such a ban.

The article says

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The city’s mayor, Burkhard Jung, told state broadcaster MDR he had decided to lift the ban
So

1) There never was a ban
2) The ban was voluntarily self-imposed by the protesters
3) The ban was lifted by the mayor

How can a mayor lift a ban that somebody else imposed on themself?

Beautiful The Guardian, innit?
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  #167  
Old 13.01.2015, 11:53
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

@ JBZ86, thanks!
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  #168  
Old 13.01.2015, 11:55
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Hahaha so you're getting your facts and truth from the media which you assume to be telling the truth? Which why wouldn't it, not like different media outlets have political allegiance or backing I suppose. I wonder what side that publication leans to.
Hahahahahahahaha, I have equal regard for the media and the organisers and the city authorities.

As I said, nothing in the German constitution allows for such a ban.

So if the city did impose it, wrong. If the organisers claimed a ban was imposed, liars. If they believed a ban could be imposed, morons.
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  #169  
Old 13.01.2015, 11:59
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Hahahahahahahaha, I have equal regard for the media and the organisers and the city authorities.

As I said, nothing in the German constitution allows for such a ban.

So if the city did impose it, wrong. If the organisers claimed a ban was imposed, liars. If they believed a ban could be imposed, morons.
Alright, calm down.

I just saw humour in the fact you were using the media to dispel the point of whether just the media lie.
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  #170  
Old 13.01.2015, 12:04
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Hahahahahahahaha, I have equal regard for the media and the organisers and the city authorities.

As I said, nothing in the German constitution allows for such a ban.

So if the city did impose it, wrong. If the organisers claimed a ban was imposed, liars. If they believed a ban could be imposed, morons.
Obviously you must be a scholar in constitutional law, so you have an advantage on me.

I thought the constitution does allow symobols to be banned. Try parading a certain Hundu symbol through the streets and you might see what I mean.

Anyway, if the organizers claimed there was a ban, it is a bit strange the the major lifted the ban. I repeat, you cannot lift a ban that doesn't exist.
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  #171  
Old 13.01.2015, 12:08
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Alright, calm down.

I just saw humour in the fact you were using the media to dispel the point of whether just the media lie.
There is a lawyer in Germany taking the German Supreme Court to court over some copyright issues. The case got referred to the Supreme Couirt and the lawyer claimed they should not judge on the matter as they were not impartial. The Supreme Court ruled that they were impartial by virtue of being the Supreme Court and hence were able to pass a judgement.

Trust your superiors and betters. They can't be wrong.
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  #172  
Old 13.01.2015, 12:14
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Alright, calm down.

I just saw humour in the fact you were using the media to dispel the point of whether just the media lie.
Atleast in this case the media did its job, i.e. reported all views. Some saying there was a ban, some saying there wasnt.

So which half of the article conforms to your biases?
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  #173  
Old 13.01.2015, 12:18
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Atleast in this case the media did its job, i.e. reported all views. Some saying there was a ban, some saying there wasnt.

So which half of the article conforms to your biases?
I don't have one. As I said, I just found your, 'it's not just the media that lie, it says so here by the media' rather amusing.
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  #174  
Old 13.01.2015, 12:18
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Atleast in this case the media did its job, i.e. reported all views. Some saying there was a ban, some saying there wasnt.

So which half of the article conforms to your biases?
When I first raised this issue, I said "I heard" and you opened your criticism thereof with "sure, you heard". You were implying I was confusing hearsay with solid indisputable facts.

Now you are packpedalling.

The article you links says in the title and repeats in text that the ban was lifted. Nowhere does it say that somebody pretended to lift the ban or that an imaginary or constitutionally illegal ban was lifted. All these aspects and possibilities were introduced into the conversation by you. And this coming from a leftie rag like the Guradian who won't miss a trick to promote leftist viewpoints and the moral superiority of the left, it is odd that they have not said more about the supposedly imaginary nature of the ban, no?
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  #175  
Old 13.01.2015, 12:19
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Obviously you must be a scholar in constitutional law, so you have an advantage on me.

I thought the constitution does allow symobols to be banned. Try parading a certain Hundu symbol through the streets and you might see what I mean.

Anyway, if the organizers claimed there was a ban, it is a bit strange the the major lifted the ban. I repeat, you cannot lift a ban that doesn't exist.
Thank you for thinking that I may be a scholar of the German constitution, but I am not! Surprise surprise

Its just that I am able to distinguish between nazi symbols and caricatures of Muhammed.

For the record, I believe that Germany has to grow up and reverse the ban on nazi symbols as well eventually.
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  #176  
Old 13.01.2015, 12:21
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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When I first raised this issue, I said "I heard" and you opened your criticism thereof with "sure, you heard". You were implying I was confusing hearsay with solid indisputable facts.

So are you now packpedalling and admitting those solid facts aren't as solid after all?
Yes, it did seem to me that you were presenting hearsay as fact.

Hence I posted a link to the article and highlighted information about a counter-view, that things are not always government bad, popular movement good. Each side has an agenda.
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  #177  
Old 13.01.2015, 12:26
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Yes, it did seem to me that you were presenting hearsay as fact.

Hence I posted a link to the article and highlighted information about a counter-view, that things are not always government bad, popular movement good. Each side has an agenda.
Okay, pleased quote from that article the supposed counter view, ie, the bit that says that the ban the mayor lifted was wholly imaginary.

Bit sad isn't it that the journalist mist a trick and used as a title "Leipzig lifts ban on cartoons depicting prophet Muhammad at rally" rather than "Leipzig lifts imaginary and self-imposed ban on cartoons depicting prophet Muhammad at rally"?
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  #178  
Old 13.01.2015, 12:31
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Okay, pleased quote from that article the supposed counter view, ie, the bit that says that the ban the mayor lifted was wholly imaginary.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ar-right-rally

"Nowicki said the organisers had used the ban for their own ends. “It wasn’t forced top-down,” he said. “It was a nice publicity stunt. What the Legida protesters did was to proclaim that they have been forced not to show any of those caricatures. In reality it wasn’t quite like that.”

A spokesman for the city said the ban had been imposed by mutual agreement between organisers and the local public order office. "
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  #179  
Old 13.01.2015, 12:39
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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I thought the constitution does allow symobols to be banned. Try parading a certain Hundu symbol through the streets and you might see what I mean.
Jesus, you are wrong on so many levels...

a) caricatures of Mohammed are not a political symbol
b) it is true, some Nazi symbols are banned to be worn in public without any historical context. I believe Germanies history is a valid reason for this small limitation of civil rights.
c) hard to believe, but Germany isn't fascist. The major of a city cannot on his own decide a ban of a symbol - the parliament makes laws and the police enforces it. Banning a symbol is something rather rare.

A major has in effect very limited tools - all he can locally decide is to ban a demonstration completely, but our constitution requires some very serious security concerns to do so. Say if there were plausible and concrete signs of a terrorist threats to attack one... which is what the police is currently working on as some islamists apparently like the idea to bomb Pegida...
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  #180  
Old 13.01.2015, 12:46
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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c) hard to believe, but Germany isn't fascist. The major of a city cannot on his own decide a ban of a symbol - the parliament makes laws and the police enforces it. Banning a symbol is something rather rare.

A major has in effect very limited tools - all he can locally decide is to ban a demonstration completely, but our constitution requires some very serious security concerns to do so. Say if there were plausible and concrete signs of a terrorist threats to attack one... which is what the police is currently working on as some islamists apparently like the idea to bomb Pegida...

Common sense would dictate that if a city authorities thought the display of some certain symbol would disrupt public peace and safety, they could in fact ban the use of it. So the possibility of the city invoking it in this situation is not beyond the realm of possibilities.
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