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  #61  
Old 18.12.2014, 08:25
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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What you are talking about, certainly in Britain is long gone. The Terrorism Act 2006 significantly strengthened existing laws to the extent that even expressing pleasure at a terrorist atrocity is likely to land you in jail, much less preaching hate. Most of the well known hate preachers have now either been deported e.g. Omar Bakri, Abu Qatada, Abu Hamza or put in jail. Britain is zero tolerance on the issue.
Really? Why then are there so many extremist in Britain and around the world? Why are they're so many flocking to the middle east to fight against the 'West'? Why is Britain still under threat, why are of duty police and soldiers not allowed to wear their uniforms?

Just because there is a law in place doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

To use your words, one disappears another comes along.
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  #62  
Old 18.12.2014, 10:57
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Re: who created Taliban ?

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The outrage against Taliban is justified. But why the deafening silence about who brainwashed, trained, armed and turned these uneducated , tough and poor tribals and pathans into the Jehadi monsters that they are today ?

People seem to have forgotten that the Taliban has been a creation and apparatus of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and US untill recently. Saudi Arabia operated thousands of madarasas to indictrinate Jehad, US provided money and arms, pakistan provided all logistics.

Even now, there is a good taliban and a bad taliban for US. One kills for them and the later fights against them.

This is kind of a useless allegation that only diverts from the problem at hand.

Accountability for Pakistan primarily belongs to the Pakistanis themselves only. Even before the Saudi Madrassas and US Aid, the Pakistanis decided they would become a military power. These were not choices made for them. They chose this path instead of peaceful co-existence with Hindus from the beginning of its inception.

Pakistan is suffering from a huge identity crisis only it can solve for itself. Pakistan has multiple personalities. There are about 5 or 6 competing concepts or personalities of who and what Pakistan is. This attack was yet another fight between these personalities.

We can leave them to sort themselves out for themselves, and step back. But a bigger problem that concerns the whole world is that it has nuclear weapons.

Say you hear a domestic violence dispute at your neighbor's house. You know one of them is psychotic. You know they have weapons. In fact, you've heard shots. Will you sit and wait until it dies down? Wouldn't you call the police? Which police? Or would you rather wait until someone kills one or more of the others?

This is not a simple situation that can be solved by simply pointing a finger at someone in the past. It's a bit like saying this is all Mahatma Ghandi's fault, or the British. Whatever. The question is, now what?
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  #63  
Old 18.12.2014, 13:44
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

Don't we have Pakistanis here on EF? Would love to hear what they have to say.
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  #64  
Old 18.12.2014, 13:46
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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. . .
Anyone who can't differentiate between these two has no sense of right and wrong, nor good and evil.
This is an important statement because, irrespective of the tragic circumstances we are discussing, it illustrates the presumption that there is a universally accepted definition of right and wrong or of good and evil. And, of course, there isn't one. Or if there is one, tell me what it is. These terms are defined by a multitude of gods, in holy books, in religions, enshrined in legal systems, in cultures etc. and none have universal jurisdiction. And there lies the root of the problem. There is a clash of values. It is only the others who are heathens, or they are infidels, or they are lawless or apostates, barbarians etc. etc.
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  #65  
Old 18.12.2014, 13:49
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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Don't we have Pakistanis here on EF? Would love to hear what they have to say.
I guess what they have to say depends on whether they support the Taliban and its actions, or not.
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  #66  
Old 18.12.2014, 14:01
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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I guess what they have to say depends on whether they support the Taliban and its actions, or not.
That's true. But it'd be then interesting to find out the reasons, especially from the people themselves. And sometimes there's not a clear dividing line between proponents and opponents. Just saying.
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  #67  
Old 18.12.2014, 14:11
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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That's true. But it'd be then interesting to find out the reasons, especially from the people themselves. And sometimes there's not a clear dividing line between proponents and opponents. Just saying.
Suppose no one would like to openly discuss about their support for the Talibans, for obvious reasons. (as a side note I tend to believe there are no EFers supporting them)
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  #68  
Old 18.12.2014, 14:11
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

What is useless and allegation ? I have stated the facts that are in public domain for quite some time but conveniently forgotten at such times.

I am not saying that Pakistan is any less responsible. But it could not have done much without the money and arms that were pumped in by Saudi and USA. The US is even today supplying money and arms to Pakistani army that ultimately land into jehadi hands.

Pakistan will not learn any lesson out of 16/12. It will continue on the path of terrorism. The US did not learn anything out of 9/11. It will continue to fund and arm terrorists when it suits its interest.
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Old 18.12.2014, 14:44
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

I am a Pakistani and the problem started when state started playing God and declared Ahmadis non Muslims. Giving in to the right wing islamic parties set the tenor and tone of what Zia did afterwards in 80's.

The rightist movement with tendencies of Islamic Fundamentalism were exploited by west and oil rich nations leading to anti soviat 'jihad' and social influences of countries changed from moderate, somewhat left to right. Militant wings were formed, arms and ammunition was available. Once the monster was created thee was no way to put it back in the box. Later in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Syria these groups triggered islamic revolutions. Chaos thru bombings and killings is tactical to keep the movement alive.

Mind u the money is still pouring in like crazy from middle east. The mosques are popping up everywhere. Last year when I went back to Islamabad for a visit 3 new mosques , huge in size, had popped up in our small neighborhood, illegally stealing green belt. The middle class has taken extreme right turn on social, political and cultural views.
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Old 18.12.2014, 14:47
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

A discussion programme about the socio-political aspects of Pakistan. In this episode the panelist include Mujeeb ur Rehman Advocate, Ayesha Jalal, Professor of History at Tufts University USA and Dr. Matthew J Nelson, SOAS UK.

https://www.alislam.org/v/5532.html
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  #71  
Old 18.12.2014, 14:48
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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What is useless and allegation ? I have stated the facts that are in public domain for quite some time but conveniently forgotten at such times.

I am not saying that Pakistan is any less responsible. But it could not have done much without the money and arms that were pumped in by Saudi and USA. The US is even today supplying money and arms to Pakistani army that ultimately land into jehadi hands.

Pakistan will not learn any lesson out of 16/12. It will continue on the path of terrorism. The US did not learn anything out of 9/11. It will continue to fund and arm terrorists when it suits its interest.

Are you saying that even engaging Pakistan is a mistake in the first place? They have nuclear weapons. The whole region has a HUGE potential to literally explode. How does disengagement help contain that?

The US does not choose Pakistan's leader for them. The US has worked with whoever was in power; secularists, Military leaders and even Islamist leader. This engagement, with the influence it has provided, has averted a lot of wars in the region. Was there no value in that?

Pakistan has always drifted. It has never really stabilized since its founding. It can go into one of half a dozen possible directions from here on. There are over a billion people in that sub-continent. There is HUGE potential for mass casualties. Should we care?
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  #72  
Old 18.12.2014, 15:03
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

The choices available as political parties are either extremely corrupt or rightist. The media, the education, text books, political parties have the same narrow minded narrative against non Muslims.I have not heard from PM or the opposition where they clearly declare Taliban as killers and should be punished. They are so afraid of rebuke from right wing religious parties that they cannot dare say anything.

Also, this is not first incident. Search on google attack on ahmadiya children in Gujrawala by mob, where children were burned alive or recently on a Christian couple where both were mercilessly killed. The problem is deep rooted. Foreign money for religious education and political unwillingness is only making it worse.
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  #73  
Old 18.12.2014, 15:19
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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I am a Pakistani...
Are you able to share your perspective on how the West can or should engage or disengage?
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  #74  
Old 18.12.2014, 15:21
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

Meanwhile, one of the planners of the 2008 Mumbai terrorist attack was set free on bail.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1151617/atc...i-attacks-case

So it looks like the Pakistani policy of covert state support to "good" terrorists, who carry out killings like the one in Peshawar, as long as it happens in other countries in support of the Pakistani establishments strategic goals, is very much set to continue.

Edit: Meanwhile, the denial has already started. Musharraf, the most recent former military dictator, under whose rule the Pakistani Taliban arose, is blaming India for having caused the Peshawar attack.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/pervez-mu...518589-56.html

Denial and business as usual, no sign anything will change.
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Old 18.12.2014, 16:46
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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Are you able to share your perspective on how the West can or should engage or disengage?
Pressurize Middle east to cut the funds. Imagine a poor family with 5-6 or 7 children. It is easy for them to give boys to Madrassas for 'religious education' funded by Takfiri school of thought. They are fed, clothed and provided free education. But these are actually brain washed. The version of Islam, concepts of Jihad are not what truly represents Islam.
Pressurize govt to repeal Blasphemy laws and other laws which clash with human rights.
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Old 18.12.2014, 17:04
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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Don't we have Pakistanis here on EF? Would love to hear what they have to say.
Pakistani here,
After living there for 27 years, one thinks he has seen it all. But the horror of 16th dec attack is just beyond anything I have experienced before. Really heartbroken, its been 2 days and I still cannot fully focus on work. Regarding supporting taliban or militants in general, I have yet to meet anyone personally, here or back in my country who supports them.

Yes, there are apologists/sympathizers for taliban. The typical argument you hear in the media is that the good ones are fighting against the unjust drone attacks authorized by the Pk govt. I just hope after this incidence people dont make this good/bad distinction anymore.

Anyways, I don't think there is any doubt regarding the motif of the attack, it was deliberately focused to hurt the army, and there are more threats on the way. Since, pakistani army started the official military operation in June there have been many retaliatory attacks on schools and airports but none of this magnitude.
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  #77  
Old 18.12.2014, 17:08
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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Pressurize Middle east to cut the funds. Imagine a poor family with 5-6 or 7 children. It is easy for them to give boys to Madrassas for 'religious education' funded by Takfiri school of thought. They are fed, clothed and provided free education. But these are actually brain washed. The version of Islam, concepts of Jihad are not what truly represents Islam.
Pressurize govt to repeal Blasphemy laws and other laws which clash with human rights.

Pressure on the Wahhabists and Salafists is only that, pressure. Ultimately, their actions are not directed by the US. I agree and don't understand why that is not happening today. So many of those executed for blasphemy or other discriminations have been Christians, yet the West is conspicuously silent.

Should the US qualify the aid it provides only for specific humanitarian or economic development purposes? Is that possible?

Also, is there a joint India-Pakistan economic free zone area? Is that possible? How do you model a better Pakistani life through economics? I hear that 55% are younger than 24 years old. What are their prospects other than war?

To be honest with you, I get the sense the Pakistanis themselves have given up and are resigned to the status quo.
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  #78  
Old 18.12.2014, 17:32
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US/West engagement

1. There has to be an acknowledgement that the problem has been partly created by US for its geopolitial gains. Taliban and its extremism was funded and armed by US to fight USSR in Afganisthan.

2. US should stop funding/arming terrorist outfits. Even today, US is supporting terrorists on Pakistan's Eastern border with India in order to get Pakistan's support for military operations on the Afgan border.

3. Economic snctions against Saudi Arabia untill it completely stops funding Wahabi terrorism.

4. Economic snactions against Pakistan until it stops terrorism. Pakistan is entirely dependent of foreign aid, it will crumble without it. International community should leverage this position.
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Old 18.12.2014, 17:42
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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...The US does not choose Pakistan's leader for them. The US has worked with whoever was in power; secularists, Military leaders and even Islamist leader. This engagement, with the influence it has provided, has averted a lot of wars in the region. Was there no value in that?...?
Let's not forget who was part of the creation of the problem. I catch a similar echo from the following statements:

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I am a Pakistani and the problem started when state started playing God and declared Ahmadis non Muslims. Giving in to the right wing islamic parties set the tenor and tone of what Zia did afterwards in 80's.

The rightist movement with tendencies of Islamic Fundamentalism were exploited by west and oil rich nations leading to anti soviat 'jihad' and social influences of countries changed from moderate, somewhat left to right. Militant wings were formed, arms and ammunition was available. Once the monster was created thee was no way to put it back in the box. Later in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Syria these groups triggered islamic revolutions. Chaos thru bombings and killings is tactical to keep the movement alive.

Mind u the money is still pouring in like crazy from middle east. The mosques are popping up everywhere. Last year when I went back to Islamabad for a visit 3 new mosques , huge in size, had popped up in our small neighborhood, illegally stealing green belt. The middle class has taken extreme right turn on social, political and cultural views.
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The outrage against Taliban is justified. But why the deafening silence about who brainwashed, trained, armed and turned these uneducated , tough and poor tribals and pathans into the Jehadi monsters that they are today ?

People seem to have forgotten that the Taliban has been a creation and apparatus of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and US untill recently. Saudi Arabia operated thousands of madarasas to indictrinate Jehad, US provided money and arms, pakistan provided all logistics.

Even now, there is a good taliban and a bad taliban for US. One kills for them and the later fights against them.
************************************************** *************************************

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...Yes, there are apologists/sympathizers for taliban. The typical argument you hear in the media is that the good ones are fighting against the unjust drone attacks authorized by the Pk govt. I just hope after this incidence people dont make this good/bad distinction anymore....
Regarding the sympathisers, could it be something more than sympathy as people seem to be educated towards being the right wing muslims as mentioned below. I mean, for sure people condemned the attack, but that'd not (I suspect) change significantly how the people perceive about Taliban.

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The choices available as political parties are either extremely corrupt or rightist. The media, the education, text books, political parties have the same narrow minded narrative against non Muslims.I have not heard from PM or the opposition where they clearly declare Taliban as killers and should be punished. They are so afraid of rebuke from right wing religious parties that they cannot dare say anything.

Also, this is not first incident. Search on google attack on ahmadiya children in Gujrawala by mob, where children were burned alive or recently on a Christian couple where both were mercilessly killed. The problem is deep rooted. Foreign money for religious education and political unwillingness is only making it worse.
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Old 18.12.2014, 17:54
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innocent victims..?

I watched some live footage. Father of one of the victims was crying out loudly...it will tarnaslate as follows.."O Alkah, why did they kill these children. They were our people, they were no Americans or Indians, they were our kids, why did you kill them ?"

So much for the innocent victims...
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