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  #101  
Old 27.12.2014, 15:36
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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So the Pakistani Taliban spokesman released a statement that the Peshawar massacre was in complete accordance with Islam, citing where Mohammed killed the Jewish tribe in Banu Qurayza, sparing pre-pubescent children while killing the others. He said those who disagree can refer to Sahih Bukhari, volume 5, Hadith 148.

I've read the Quran, and see the major plot line is the establishment of a Muslim state. This plotline appears to be the same blueprint the Taliban, al Qaeda and ISIS is working from. So since they provide scriptural basis for their actions, in what ways are they not Islamic? I hear what you are saying - that this is not the same perspective you have come to understand Islam, and this offends your sensibilities. But what is the scriptural basis of your refutation of these group's tactics? What verses and teaching would you provide to refute their actions?

By your logic, wifes of Christians are SUBORDINATE to men . AND good Christian men have to beat their wifes regularily. Yes, it is all in the Bible
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  #102  
Old 27.12.2014, 21:58
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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By your logic, wifes of Christians are SUBORDINATE to men . AND good Christian men have to beat their wifes regularily. Yes, it is all in the Bible
My logic? Are you drinking again Wolli? That is nonsense response. My question is how "moderate" Muslims refute Jihadists when jihadists back their actions with scripture. What scripture do moderates use to back their moderation? How are they sure they are really more Islamic then jihadist extremist?
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  #103  
Old 28.12.2014, 02:49
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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My logic? Are you drinking again Wolli? That is nonsense response. My question is how "moderate" Muslims refute Jihadists when jihadists back their actions with scripture. What scripture do moderates use to back their moderation? How are they sure they are really more Islamic then jihadist extremist?

The SAME scripture, but in a normal way. The Extremists pick some phrases out of the whole Thing


And now something important. While BOTH testaments of the Bible are sorted first along Topics and second even with some extent of chronology, the Koran is different. The Surahs out of the mess usual in Arab bureaucracy, were sorted along their lengths, the longest one (Nr 2) coming first and then it goes down and down to the shortest at the end.


As Racists in America and in Nazi Germany used the Bible, picking out extracts they liked, Extremists on the Muslim side use the Koran in the same way. Everything in regard to both books depends on the INTERPRETATION. Well, in Islam the most important Organisation is the IIC (Islamic International Conference) and the most important cleric in Islam is the Sheikh-al-Islam=Sheikh-al-Azhar in Cairo. While in Christiandom it is split with the Popes in Rome (Roman Catholic), Istanbul (Greek Orthodox) and Moscow (Russian Orthodox) and the chief organisations in Armenia, Britain (Archbishop of Canterbury), Reformierter Kirchenrat (Switzerland) -- THEIR interpretations are authoritative and not the views of some isolated small sects
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  #104  
Old 28.12.2014, 11:18
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Which book has got more people slaughtered? Bible or Koran ?

Which book has got more people slaughtered? Bible or Koran ?

Any estimates? It is dishonest to just keep pointing only towards Koran and Muslims for all the violence and terrorism.

Since Christianity is embraced and propagated by the West, they are more sophisticated in their methods and media management as compared to the crude methods of Jehadis when it comes to slaughtering innocent non believers in the name of Allah or Jesus Christ.

People tweak message in any book to suit their purpose. It is important to stop supporting or denouncing terrorism by quoting a book. Terrorism and violence must be denounced irrespective of what is written in a book and we must learn to live life by modern principles of humanity and not by these books.
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  #105  
Old 28.12.2014, 23:23
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

Still waiting for an honest response to my question, from someone who might know.

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So since they (terrorists) provide scriptural basis for their actions, in what ways are they not Islamic? I hear what you are saying - that this is not the same perspective you have come to understand Islam, and this offends your sensibilities. But what is the scriptural basis of your refutation of these group's tactics? What verses and teaching would you provide to refute their actions?
How are terrorists unislamic?
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  #106  
Old 28.12.2014, 23:40
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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So the Pakistani Taliban spokesman released a statement that the Peshawar massacre was in complete accordance with Islam, citing where Mohammed killed the Jewish tribe in Banu Qurayza, sparing pre-pubescent children while killing the others. He said those who disagree can refer to Sahih Bukhari, volume 5, Hadith 148.

I've read the Quran, and see the major plot line is the establishment of a Muslim state. This plotline appears to be the same blueprint the Taliban, al Qaeda and ISIS is working from. So since they provide scriptural basis for their actions, in what ways are they not Islamic? I hear what you are saying - that this is not the same perspective you have come to understand Islam, and this offends your sensibilities. But what is the scriptural basis of your refutation of these group's tactics? What verses and teaching would you provide to refute their actions?
About "What verses and teaching would you provide to refute their actions?"

The same verses but with a different interpretation.

About "they provide scriptural basis for their actions"; not exactly, they provide an interpretation of these scriptures to support their actions but it is not an interpretation that is generally accepted.

About "citing where Mohammed killed the Jewish tribe in Banu Qurayza, sparing pre-pubescent children while killing the others."

Just one interpretation, while others write no children were killed only captured. Look at the Koran 033.026 (which also has multiple interpretations).
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  #107  
Old 28.12.2014, 23:48
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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About "they provide scriptural basis for their actions"; not exactly, they provide an interpretation of these scriptures to support their actions but it is not an interpretation that is generally accepted.

About "citing where Mohammed killed the Jewish tribe in Banu Qurayza, sparing pre-pubescent children while killing the others."

Just one interpretation, while others write no children were killed only captured. Look at the Koran 033.026 (which also has multiple interpretations).

Marton, I am interested in understanding the dialog between mainstream and radical Muslims. Are you engaged in that dialog? I'd like to hear from Muslims on both side of that discussion. Any particular reason why you are responding? You have source for your response?
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  #108  
Old 28.12.2014, 23:58
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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Marton, I am interested in understanding the dialog between mainstream and radical Muslims. Are you engaged in that dialog? I'd like to hear from Muslims on both side of that discussion. Any particular reason why you are responding? You have source for your response?
About "Any particular reason why you are responding?"

Yes, this is an open forum and I can respond to anything that cathches my attention, sorry it does not fit your pre-concieved idea of who is privileged to be engaged in the discussion.
Maybe you should start your own forum?

About "You have source for your response?" Yes, same source as you have for your questions
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  #109  
Old 29.12.2014, 00:14
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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About "Any particular reason why you are responding?"

Yes, this is an open forum and I can respond to anything that cathches my attention, sorry it does not fit your pre-concieved idea of who is privileged to be engaged in the discussion.
Maybe you should start your own forum?

About "You have source for your response?" Yes, same source as you have for your questions

Okay, since you would like to take it up. The question is how are the the radical terrorists not Islamic when they source the justification of their actions on the Quran. They cited the verse they use for their justification. For a purely jurisprudence response, how is their action not islamic, and where are the scripture verses that proves that?
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  #110  
Old 29.12.2014, 02:05
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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Okay, since you would like to take it up. The question is how are the the radical terrorists not Islamic when they source the justification of their actions on the Quran. They cited the verse they use for their justification. For a purely jurisprudence response, how is their action not islamic, and where are the scripture verses that proves that?
Take for example the Klu Klux Klan who claim to be Protestant Christians.
Are their actions not Christian, and are there scripture verses that prove that?

Or the death of more than 900 members of the People's Temple in Jonestown, Guyana; the leader Jim Jones proclaimed himself a prophet of God.

Joseph Di Mambro and Luc Jouret founded the Order of the Solar Temple in Geneva in 1984. Jouret claimed to be Christ. They murdered at least 50 people in Canada and Switzerland.

The point is that neither Islam nor Christianity have a single central interpretation of their religion and anyone can set up cult claiming to follow one of these religions and there is no litmus test to prove it or not.

Although these groups claim to follow a religion they do not represent that religion and are not accepted by the mainstream nor formally affiliated.
Consequently these religions do not have an obligation or a structure to attempt to control or limit these cults.
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  #111  
Old 29.12.2014, 11:34
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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Consequently these religions do not have an obligation or a structure to attempt to control or limit these cults.
I'd like to propose a Central Unbiased Committee for each religion that sets up a basic set of rules that interprets, decodes and writes out in plain language what you're allowed and meant to do. And not.

I'll even venture an appropriate name: "The Thought Parliament that makes up stuff as you go along and pretends that their god is better than your god because they follow it like OCD Authority".
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  #112  
Old 29.12.2014, 12:16
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

I'm not asking about Christian radicalism. I'm asking about the Taliban, Al qaeda, and ISIS. Politicians and mainstrem Muslims are quick to state these groups are not Islamic. By what tenet are they not Muslims, or are they not Islamic?

I think that is a very fair question that anyone who makes such claim should be able to answer. KKK is not an answer to this question.
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  #113  
Old 29.12.2014, 12:39
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

Phos: I'm Catholic which makes me no better or worse than anyone else.

When I see Fred Phelps and his group of racist, intolerant followers, I do not look at them as Christian even though he calls himself one.

When I hear Christians judging others by their beliefs, I fear they've missed the boat on what the basic idea of Christianity is about: Love thy neighbour.

Unfortunately, debates with these people only lead to frustration because they blindly believe they are right in their intolerance of others. I cannot change their minds but I can be a role model for them by living my life as to how I interpret it to be morally correct.

Our current Pope has been an excellent example of being a role model for his followers by living a more simple lifestyle and reaching out to the common folk.

I cannot see how dealing with fanatical Muslims is any different than dealing with fanatical Christians or any fanatics in general.
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  #114  
Old 29.12.2014, 12:46
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

Nice sentiment, but again, you're evading a question by referencing Christianity when it has nothing to do with the question. Why not throw in Hindu radicalism as well?

The question is the definition by which radical groups are quickly labelled Unislamic and non-Mislim. What objective tenet or Islamic law do they transgress that disqualifies them being considered Muslim, or their movement Un-Islamic?

Now this is a question that should be answered by those who claim these groups are not Islamic. Its a very academic question. There are no slights nor insinuations in it. Its an opportunity for mainstream Muslims to define it fairly. No need to get rabidly confused by it.
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  #115  
Old 29.12.2014, 12:57
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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Nice sentiment, but again, you're evading a question by referencing Christianity when it has nothing to do with the question. Why not throw in Hindu radicalism as well?

The question is the definition by which radical groups are quickly labelled Unislamic and non-Mislim. What objective tenet or Islamic law do they transgress that disqualifies them being considered Muslim, or their movement Un-Islamic?

Now this is a question that should be answered by those who claim these groups are not Islamic. Its a very academic question. There are no slights nor insinuations in it. Its an opportunity for mainstream Muslims to define it fairly. No need to get rabidly confused by it.
Phos: I would advise you to find some Muslim friends and ask them these questions directly. When I asked a Muslim friend about this, they said it was not their way to condemn these people publicly. Perhaps you'll get another answer.
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  #116  
Old 29.12.2014, 13:00
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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Phos: I would advise you to find some Muslim friends and ask them these questions directly. When I asked a Muslim friend about this, they said it was not their way to condemn these people publicly. Perhaps you'll get another answer.
So that question that stands here for anyone, particularly Muslims, who would care to answer it. Please allow them to do so themselves.
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  #117  
Old 29.12.2014, 13:04
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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So that question that stands here for anyone, particularly Muslims, who would care to answer it. Please allow them to do so themselves.
I'm becoming rather frustrated with you. You are looking for answers without comprehending what's being said. When someone attempts to give you an answer, you dismiss it. I sense an inability to be open-minded about this and any answer given will not be the answer you're looking for.

Edit:
Again, this gives evidence to my belief on how difficult and futile it is to talk to someone who is stubborn. A case of projecting?
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  #118  
Old 29.12.2014, 13:10
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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When I asked a Muslim friend about this, they said it was not their way to condemn these people publicly.
This is not true. Have they not already done this with the Peshawar attacks, and all previous attacks? They have already condemned it quite publicly. So I don't see your point. They have an arrest warrant for the Red Mosque leader for refusing to condemn this attack. What is the basis of the arrest warrant?

Why are you trying so hard for a question you obviously have no answer for?
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  #119  
Old 29.12.2014, 13:19
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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This is not true. Have they not already done this with the Peshawar attacks, and all previous attacks? They have already condemned it quite publicly. So I don't see your point. They have an arrest warrant for the Red Mosque leader for refusing to condemn this attack. What is the basis of the arrest warrant?

Why are you trying so hard for a question you obviously have no answer for?
Are you looking for a specific list? Good God man, it's not that difficult. These fanatical groups are killing anyone who is not part of their group. It does not matter if their victims are Muslims, etc.

Seriously, if you're really that interested in finding someone specific to answer your question, get off this forum and get in contact with a leader of a mosque. Your dissing of posters who are trying to help you is pissing everyone off. Edit: meant kindly, of course.
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  #120  
Old 29.12.2014, 13:26
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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Are you looking for a specific list? Good God man, it's not that difficult. These fanatical groups are killing anyone who is not part of their group. It does not matter if their victims are Muslims, etc.

Seriously, if you're really that interested in finding someone specific to answer your question, get off this forum and get in contact with a leader of a mosque. Your dissing of posters who are trying to help you is pissing everyone off. Edit: meant kindly, of course.

Who is disrespecting who? Its simply an intellectual question about Islam and Muslims. This is not meant as disrespect to anybody. Why can't this question can't be asked?
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