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  #121  
Old 29.12.2014, 13:35
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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Who is disrespecting who? Its simply an intellectual question about Islam and Muslims. This is not meant as disrespect to anybody. Why can't this question can't be asked?
You are on a public forum looking for a specific person to answer your question in terms you will accept. Your dismissals have been condescending and disrespectful. Instead of waiting to be spoon-fed an answer, perhaps you should actively search for someone who you feel will answer your questions correctly otherwise you're just being trollish.
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  #122  
Old 29.12.2014, 13:37
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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I'm not asking about Christian radicalism. I'm asking about the Taliban, Al qaeda, and ISIS. Politicians and mainstrem Muslims are quick to state these groups are not Islamic. By what tenet are they not Muslims, or are they not Islamic?

I think that is a very fair question that anyone who makes such claim should be able to answer. KKK is not an answer to this question.
As you correctly write it is a tenet; a belief not a fact.

It is a matter of opinion.

Various people have faith in different imaginary friends and associated opinions, often conflicting opinions; there are no facts
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  #123  
Old 29.12.2014, 13:54
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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As you correctly write it is a tenet; a belief not a fact.

It is a matter of opinion.

Various people have faith in different imaginary friends and associated opinions, often conflicting opinions; there are no facts
The Pakistani Taliban published their justification based on the Quran. Not an opinion from thin air, but a subjective interpretation of Islamic scripture. Now, by what interpretation and justification are the Pakistani Taliban, al qeada and ISIS considered not Muslims, and not Islamic?

You know what, you guys are dodging the question. I'll wait for a valid response.
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  #124  
Old 29.12.2014, 23:41
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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Still waiting for an honest response to my question, from someone who might know.



How are terrorists unislamic?

Muslim terrorists are Muslims, Christian terrorists are Christians, Buddhist terrorists are Buddhists. The Crusaders were extremists, but Christians, did read the Bible and acted on the basis of orders given by the Roman Catholic Pope.


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The Pakistani Taliban published their justification based on the Quran. Not an opinion from thin air, but a subjective interpretation of Islamic scripture. Now, by what interpretation and justification are the Pakistani Taliban, al qeada and ISIS considered not Muslims, and not Islamic?

You know what, you guys are dodging the question. I'll wait for a valid response.

"Taliban"-extremists, members of ISIS and of el Qaeda (not Qeada) are Muslims, and so are most of the Kurds, Ismaelites in Syria, Allawites in Syria, members of the Ahmadiyya movement in Pakistan, and of course the above mentioned Sheikh-al-Islam of el-Azhar. Also the Iranian General, delegated to Iraq and Syria to improve the fight against ISIS, is a Muslim.


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Nobody can provide a valid response as responses depend on denomination, "schools of faith", Imam in Charge, etc

Last edited by Wollishofener; 29.12.2014 at 23:57.
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  #125  
Old 30.12.2014, 01:24
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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Muslim terrorists are Muslims, Christian terrorists are Christians, Buddhist terrorists are Buddhists. The Crusaders were extremists, but Christians, did read the Bible and acted on the basis of orders given by the Roman Catholic Pope.


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"Taliban"-extremists, members of ISIS and of el Qaeda (not Qeada) are Muslims, and so are most of the Kurds, Ismaelites in Syria, Allawites in Syria, members of the Ahmadiyya movement in Pakistan, and of course the above mentioned Sheikh-al-Islam of el-Azhar. Also the Iranian General, delegated to Iraq and Syria to improve the fight against ISIS, is a Muslim.


************************************************** *********************************************


Nobody can provide a valid response as responses depend on denomination, "schools of faith", Imam in Charge, etc
About "The Crusaders were extremists, but Christians, did read the Bible and acted on the basis of orders given by the Roman Catholic Pope."

Including the infamous fourth crusade when they went to Constantinople (instead of the Holy Land) that was an Eastern Orthodox city at the time and killed a lot of "fellow" Christians.
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  #126  
Old 30.12.2014, 01:45
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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The SAME scripture, but in a normal way. The Extremists pick some phrases out of the whole Thing


And now something important. While BOTH testaments of the Bible are sorted first along Topics and second even with some extent of chronology, the Koran is different. The Surahs out of the mess usual in Arab bureaucracy, were sorted along their lengths, the longest one (Nr 2) coming first and then it goes down and down to the shortest at the end.


As Racists in America and in Nazi Germany used the Bible, picking out extracts they liked, Extremists on the Muslim side use the Koran in the same way. Everything in regard to both books depends on the INTERPRETATION. Well, in Islam the most important Organisation is the IIC (Islamic International Conference) and the most important cleric in Islam is the Sheikh-al-Islam=Sheikh-al-Azhar in Cairo. While in Christiandom it is split with the Popes in Rome (Roman Catholic), Istanbul (Greek Orthodox) and Moscow (Russian Orthodox) and the chief organisations in Armenia, Britain (Archbishop of Canterbury), Reformierter Kirchenrat (Switzerland) -- THEIR interpretations are authoritative and not the views of some isolated small sects
Good post Wolli.
Good description here of "Islams structure in religious authority" for people who have the time and interest to read it

About "the most important cleric in Islam is the Sheikh-al-Islam=Sheikh-al-Azhar in Cairo" this is in the Sunni part of the Muslim world.

After re-reading the associated references I wonder if Erdogan dreams of becoming the new Sunni Caliph
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  #127  
Old 30.12.2014, 02:42
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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Good post Wolli.
Good description here of "Islams structure in religious authority" for people who have the time and interest to read it

About "the most important cleric in Islam is the Sheikh-al-Islam=Sheikh-al-Azhar in Cairo" this is in the Sunni part of the Muslim world.

After re-reading the associated references I wonder if Erdogan dreams of becoming the new Sunni Caliph

Sunni Islam is in a heavy majority. King Idris es-Senussi of Libya in the late 1920is tried to convince Mustafa Kemal Pasha to take over as Kaliph, but Mustafa Kemal Pasha refused. Turkey as a sizeable industrial military power is in a position to assume the role of Kaliph for its president. There even is the possibility that MR Erdogan changes his position from President to Sultan. If you see that there will be a new Kurdistan ranging from Erbil to Deir-es-Zor, such ideas may make sense.
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  #128  
Old 03.01.2015, 14:11
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Re: Taliban kill over 120 in Pakistan

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So the Pakistani Taliban spokesman released a statement that the Peshawar massacre was in complete accordance with Islam, citing where Mohammed killed the Jewish tribe in Banu Qurayza, sparing pre-pubescent children while killing the others. He said those who disagree can refer to Sahih Bukhari, volume 5, Hadith 148.
The Banu Qurayza were a Jewish tribe that lived in northern Arabia, at the oasis of Yathrib (presently known as Medina). In 627 AD, when the Quraysh (Meccans) and their allies besieged the city of Medina in the Battle of the Trench, the Qurayza violated a treaty with prophet Muhammad (PBUH) by allying with the attacking tribes, aiming to attack Muslims from behind while the other attackers attack from the front. Subsequently, the tribe was charged with treason and besieged by the Muslims. The Qurayza surrendered on the condition that their fate would be decided by their allies, the Bani Aws. The Banu Qurayza accepted Sa'd as their judge because in the pre-Islamic days the Aws and the Qurayza had been confederates and they hoped that in view of the past ties he would help them quit Madinah as had happened in the case of the Bani Qainuqa and the Bani an-Nadir before. The people of the Aws themselves wished that Sa'd treat their previous allies leniently. But Sa'd had just experienced and seen how the two Jewish tribes who had been allowed to leave Medina previously had instigated the other tribes living around Medina and summoned the united front of ten to twelve thousand men against the Muslims. He was also aware how treacherously this last Jewish tribe had behaved right on the occasion when the city was under attack from outside and threatened the safety of the whole of its population. He decreed the sentence according to the (Jewish law) Torah (Deuteronomy 20:10-14) that all the fighting male members of the Quraizah should be put to death, their women and children taken prisoners, and their properties distributed among the Muslims.

I fail to see any relation between the story of Banu Qurayza and what they did in Peshawar. How are the two events comparable?


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I've read the Quran, and see the major plot line is the establishment of a Muslim state. This plotline appears to be the same blueprint the Taliban, al Qaeda and ISIS is working from. So since they provide scriptural basis for their actions, in what ways are they not Islamic? I hear what you are saying - that this is not the same perspective you have come to understand Islam, and this offends your sensibilities. But what is the scriptural basis of your refutation of these group's tactics? What verses and teaching would you provide to refute their actions?

The Qur'an is the supreme authority in Islam and the primary source of Islamic Law, including the laws regulating war and peace. The second source is the hadith, the traditions of the Prophet Muhammad's acts and deeds, which can be used to confirm, explain or elaborate Qur'anic teachings, but may not contradict the Qur'an, since they derive their authority from the Qur'an itself. Together these form the basis for all other sources of Islamic law, such as ijma' (consensus of Muslim scholars on an opinion regarding any given subject) and qiyas (reasoning by analogy). These and others are merely methods to reach decisions based on the texts or the spirit of the Qur'an and hadith. The Qur'an and hadith are thus the only binding sources of Islamic law. Again, nothing is acceptable if it contradicts the text or the spirit of these two sources. Any opinions arrived at by individual scholars or schools of Islamic law, including the recognized four Sunni schools, are no more than opinions.

- See more at: http://www.islamicity.com/Articles/a....UfsAwQ2K.dpuf

Now you claim that they base their actions on Quranic verses. Which verses are you referring to?

[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.


[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.


[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.


[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[4:90] ... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

[4:94] O you who have believed, when you go forth [to fight] in the cause of Allah , investigate; and do not say to one who gives you [a greeting of] peace "You are not a believer," aspiring for the goods of worldly life; for with Allah are many acquisitions. You [yourselves] were like that before; then Allah conferred His favor upon you, so investigate. Indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.

[6:151] Say: Come, I will recite unto you that which your Lord hath made a sacred duty for you: That ye ascribe no thing as partner unto Him and that ye do good to parents, and that ye slay not your children because of penury - We provide for you and for them - and that ye draw not nigh to lewd things whether open or concealed. And that ye slay not the life which Allah hath made sacred, save in the course of justice. This He hath command you, in order that ye may discern.

[17:33] You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder; he will be helped.

[25:68] They never implore beside GOD any other god, nor do they kill anyone - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. Nor do they commit adultery. Those who commit these offenses will have to pay.

[7:28] They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"

[2:11-18] And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers. Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not. And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed," they say, "Should we believe as the foolish have believed?" Unquestionably, it is they who are the foolish, but they know [it] not. And when they meet those who believe, they say, "We believe"; but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say, "Indeed, we are with you; we were only mockers." [But] Allah mocks them and prolongs them in their transgression [while] they wander blindly. Those are the ones who have purchased error [in exchange] for guidance, so their transaction has brought no profit, nor were they guided. Their example is that of one who kindled a fire, but when it illuminated what was around him, Allah took away their light and left them in darkness [so] they could not see. Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return [to the right path].

I will also suggest what others have done before me, if you are really interested then you should contact a scholar or an imam to clarify any questions or doubts you may have.
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