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  #21  
Old 30.12.2014, 20:15
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Re: Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

Besides AF477 , I have the feeling that pretty much all air plane crashes are happening in Asia....
I have a theory about that. Asians are very hierrarchy orriented and tend to listen to their supervisors to the very end, literally. The pilot was not likely to alter the route had he been told otherwise, no way. The less experienced pilot would not even have attempted to give instructions or try to change things since the first pilot is...obviously more experienced and senior. It is a cultural thing.
My father is a ship captain and he told me he had observed that asians handled critical situations in the sea the same way. If the captain had set the route, neither anybody would have attempted to "suggest" a better option nor the captain would have listened had somebody brave enough tried
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Old 30.12.2014, 20:38
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Re: Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

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Besides AF477 , I have the feeling that pretty much all air plane crashes are happening in Asia....
I have a theory about that. Asians are very hierrarchy orriented and tend to listen to their supervisors to the very end, literally. The pilot was not likely to alter the route had he been told otherwise, no way. The less experienced pilot would not even have attempted to give instructions or try to change things since the first pilot is...obviously more experienced and senior. It is a cultural thing.
- Malcom Gladwell, "Outliers"
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  #23  
Old 30.12.2014, 20:47
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Re: Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

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Besides AF477 , I have the feeling that pretty much all air plane crashes are happening in Asia....
I have a theory about that. Asians are very hierrarchy orriented and tend to listen to their supervisors to the very end, literally. The pilot was not likely to alter the route had he been told otherwise, no way. The less experienced pilot would not even have attempted to give instructions or try to change things since the first pilot is...obviously more experienced and senior. It is a cultural thing.
My father is a ship captain and he told me he had observed that asians handled critical situations in the sea the same way. If the captain had set the route, neither anybody would have attempted to "suggest" a better option nor the captain would have listened had somebody brave enough tried
That has nothing to do with race but the safety standards set for airlines operating on an international level.
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  #24  
Old 30.12.2014, 21:12
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Re: Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

Obviously the safety standards are uniform because international carriers need to comply by the same regulations imposed by the US and the EU, but the individual decision making process is often related to culture.

And I didnt say its racial thing, its cultural thing, there is a difference. Obviously what I said does not apply to Asian-Americans for example. It is prevalent in very traditional Asian countries in which hierarchy is very important.

But what I am saying is not "the typical explanation" and its kind of "outside the box" and therefore not appealing to FuriousRose To him culture does not impact thinking and behaving in any way
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Old 30.12.2014, 21:22
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That has nothing to do with race but the safety standards set for airlines operating on an international level.
Not strictly, the cultural aspect has played a major role in a few crashes where the Co. Pilot had noticed an incorrect action by the pilot but does not speak up.

Crews are supposed to use CRM , crew resource management whereby any concerns are openly voiced regardless of rank.. doesn't ways happen especially in Asia.

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Besides AF477 , I have the feeling that pretty much all air plane crashes are happening in Asia....
I have a theory about that. Asians are very hierrarchy orriented and tend to listen to their supervisors to the very end, literally. The pilot was not likely to alter the route had he been told otherwise, no way. The less experienced pilot would not even have attempted to give instructions or try to change things since the first pilot is...obviously more experienced and senior. It is a cultural thing.
My father is a ship captain and he told me he had observed that asians handled critical situations in the sea the same way. If the captain had set the route, neither anybody would have attempted to "suggest" a better option nor the captain would have listened had somebody brave enough tried
Better not look at stats for African airlines

Last edited by 3Wishes; 02.01.2015 at 16:25. Reason: merging successive posts
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Old 30.12.2014, 22:47
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Serious question - honestly - don't mean it to be completely insensitive.

What happens to people's clothes in a plane crash??

The current footage from QZ8501 shows a body in the water apparently just wearing underpants.

Footage from the shot down MH17 showed many almost naked bodies and a recent documentary on the BBC about Lockerbie interviewed local people who described naked bodies strewn across fields.

PanAM and MH17 i could imagine a mid air explosion could shred clothes to an extent but even then, could it cleanly remove them? And air Asia, would imagine that hit the water complete?
Well if a plane suddenly changes speed from several hundred Km per hour to practically nothing then then the passengers are propelled through several rows of seats in front of them which has an abrasive effect on their clothing

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Besides AF477 , I have the feeling that pretty much all air plane crashes are happening in Asia....
I have a theory about that. Asians are very hierrarchy orriented and tend to listen to their supervisors to the very end, literally. The pilot was not likely to alter the route had he been told otherwise, no way. The less experienced pilot would not even have attempted to give instructions or try to change things since the first pilot is...obviously more experienced and senior. It is a cultural thing.
My father is a ship captain and he told me he had observed that asians handled critical situations in the sea the same way. If the captain had set the route, neither anybody would have attempted to "suggest" a better option nor the captain would have listened had somebody brave enough tried
Some people claim this was a factor in this crash.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 02.01.2015 at 16:26. Reason: merging successive posts
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Old 30.12.2014, 22:54
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Re: Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

Why are most of you talking garbage on this thread?

Yes, there have been historical Asian cases of co-pilots not speaking up when they should have to avert situations (Asiana in SFO), but at this time, we don't have any facts in this case, apart from bits of airplanes and bodies in the ocean.

Here are your options:

1) Catastrophic airframe failure caused by a technical build fault or over stressing the airplane. (The A.320 doesn't have a history of falling apart)

2) Loss of controlled flight due to weather and inability to recover.

3) Fuel starvation (unlikely as this would have been called in)

4) Third party interference leading to catastrophic airframe failure.

Now just wait for the investigators to see if they can read any of the multiple parameters that are recorded on the FDR to see if they can piece the sequence of events together and then make recommendations that we'll all learn from.
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Old 30.12.2014, 22:55
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Re: Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

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Serious question - honestly - don't mean it to be completely insensitive.

What happens to people's clothes in a plane crash??

The current footage from QZ8501 shows a body in the water apparently just wearing underpants.

Footage from the shot down MH17 showed many almost naked bodies and a recent documentary on the BBC about Lockerbie interviewed local people who described naked bodies strewn across fields.

PanAM and MH17 i could imagine a mid air explosion could shred clothes to an extent but even then, could it cleanly remove them? And air Asia, would imagine that hit the water complete?
Lack of clothes suggest a sudden mid flight break up.
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  #29  
Old 31.12.2014, 00:18
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Re: Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

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- Malcom Gladwell, "Outliers"
Wasn't the case described in this book the case of Avianca Flight 52 in 1990? If so, then the carrier and the pilots were both South American (Columbian), not Asian.

Basically the flight ran out of fuel circling JFK and crashed into Long Island. The pilots failed to communicate the seriousness of the fuel situation in direct enough terms to air traffic control. Instead of jumping the queue, they kept waiting for their turn to land. Part of the problem identified in the resulting investigation was the differences in the cultural approach to authority, both within the cockpit (the copilot didn't communicate the fuel situation he was monitoring very strongly to the captain, who did his best to ignore the copilot) and between the pilots and air traffic control (pilots are "subservient" to air traffic control). In this case the pilots tried to subtly ask for "priority" in the landing queue rather than explicitly stating that they were in an emergency situation and running out of fuel. That level of passivity was lost on the New Yorkers in the tower. A sad story which so easily could have been prevented.

I'm not sure there is really any corresponding analogy to be made between the Avianca crash and those of the present day, though. Pilots and air traffic controllers now get communications training. Plus one upside to the general global spread of multimedia and the internet, is that the younger generation of pilots today is culturally less passive, more "Westernized" or "Americanized", and speaks better English than those of 25 years ago.

So it turns out that reality television might be making a positive contribution to our society.
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Old 31.12.2014, 00:31
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Re: Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

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Wasn't the case described in this book the case of Avianca Flight 52 in 1990? If so, then the carrier and the pilots were both South American (Columbian), not Asian.

Basically the flight ran out of fuel circling JFK and crashed into Long Island. The pilots failed to communicate the seriousness of the fuel situation in direct enough terms to air traffic control. Instead of jumping the queue, they kept waiting for their turn to land. Part of the problem identified in the resulting investigation was the differences in the cultural approach to authority, both within the cockpit (the copilot didn't communicate the fuel situation he was monitoring very strongly to the captain, who did his best to ignore the copilot) and between the pilots and air traffic control (pilots are "subservient" to air traffic control). In this case the pilots tried to subtly ask for "priority" in the landing queue rather than explicitly stating that they were in an emergency situation and running out of fuel. That level of passivity was lost on the New Yorkers in the tower. A sad story which so easily could have been prevented.

I'm not sure there is really any corresponding analogy to be made between the Avianca crash and those of the present day, though. Pilots and air traffic controllers now get communications training. Plus one upside to the general global spread of multimedia and the internet, is that the younger generation of pilots today is culturally less passive, more "Westernized" or "Americanized", and speaks better English than those of 25 years ago.

So it turns out that reality television might be making a positive contribution to our society.
It's been a while since I read Outliers but I'm pretty sure that it had to do specifically with Korean Pilots.

Edit: Yep, at least Koreans and also Avianca.
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Old 31.12.2014, 00:36
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Re: Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

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It's been a while since I read outliers but I'm pretty sure that it had to do specifically with Korean Pilots.

Edit: Yep, at least Koreans
I think the Koreans were involved in a different discussed crash. Anybody have a copy? I gave mine away a long time ago.

Edit: according to the link posted, both crashes were discussed as examples of cultural differences in hierarchies
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  #32  
Old 31.12.2014, 09:13
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Re: Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

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Better not look at stats for African airlines

exactly THIS hints to a major problem of civil aviation, not least on the African continent and that is INFRASTRUCTURE.
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Old 31.12.2014, 11:22
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Re: Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

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It's been a while since I read Outliers but I'm pretty sure that it had to do specifically with Korean Pilots.

Edit: Yep, at least Koreans and also Avianca.


Korean ? SFO or LAX ? Whatever, the expansion of civil aviation in Asia is so fast, that neither the infrastructure nor the pilot training programs can cope
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Old 31.12.2014, 12:32
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Jesus wept, I have a flight booked on air asia from singapore to Phuket in March My wife wants to cancel the flight. Maybe an over-reaction but the 3 major airline disasters this year are all Malaysian based.....Whats going on......

Having said that, I have flown Malaysian Airlines a number of times, including the ill fated Amsterdam to K.L. route and I was more than impressed with the service....

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Old 31.12.2014, 13:30
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Re: Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

First crash, possibly suicidal pilot or terrorists

Second crash, possibly shot down by Ukrainians, with a Russian supplied missile

Third crash, the Air Asia airline was sold by MSA, many years before, for $1

It isn't exactly a fault with Malaysian State Airlines is it? Please re-assure your wife that MSA is as safe as any other airline.
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Old 31.12.2014, 13:50
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Re: Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

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Jesus wept, I have a flight booked on air asia from singapore to Phuket in March My wife wants to cancel the flight. Maybe an over-reaction but the 3 major airline disasters this year are all Malaysian based.....Whats going on......
Why cancel? It totally defies logic. It's like saying a bus crashed so I'm never going on a bus.
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Old 31.12.2014, 14:05
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Re: Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

Agreed, I dont want to cancel..but my wife is still a little nervous
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Old 02.01.2015, 15:27
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Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

One plane had a transponder turned off before disappearing - surely a skilled person needed, could be pilot himself. Another flew a route deemed dangerous by some other airlines. Another either malfunctioned or human error, did not signal alarm even if probably could before landing on water. I wouldn't fly with them; similarly I refused flying with Aeroflot.
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Old 02.01.2015, 16:31
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Re: Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

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One plane had a transponder turned off before disappearing - surely a skilled person needed, could be pilot himself. Another flew a route deemed dangerous by some other airlines. Another either malfunctioned or human error, did not signal alarm even if probably could before landing on water. I wouldn't fly with them; similarly I refused flying with Aeroflot.
1. The first two were Malaysia Airlines, only the last one was Air Asia, which has one of the top safety records in the region.

2. The fact that the airlines were all Malaysian is probably half coincidence and half just a consequence of the volume of flights operated by those carriers in a part of the world known for high traffic, difficult weather patterns (which are worsening due to climate change), a low ratio of land to ocean, and therefore spottier tracking/air traffic control.

3. Hindsight is 20/20. I'm sure the MH17 decision to keep flying in a known civil aviation skyway way above the area, instead of deviating hundreds of miles out of the way, was made by a committee of mid-level mangers. I'd be willing to bet money that the thought process in that room was all about the business costs/time associated with the deviation and the difficulty of maintaining the take-off/landing schedules at two very busy airports. I'd also be willing to bet that none of those people were aware of the risks of Surface to Air missiles in the area. That's serious hardware usually possessed by warring states, not rebel forces.

4. We really don't know anything about the AirAsia flight yet. Fortunately it's in relatively shallow water, so a diving crew should be able to map the wreckage and recover the black boxes soon. I bet the initial transportation safety investigation gets underway soon, if it already hasn't. But if there is anything that the MH370 disappearance has taught us is that in the absence of information, the media will report on whatever scenarios they can come up with to fill airtime, including a number of conspiracy theories.

Just my 2 centimes...
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Old 02.01.2015, 16:38
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Re: Air Asia Flight QZ8501 missing

Aliens...
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