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  #1161  
Old 15.01.2015, 13:19
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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..but that surely means also being self critical, hopefully?
The key word there is "self", not "other". The value of words, pictures and expressions should rise and fall on their own merits; just like any other goods. Its determined by its consumers and public opinion.

When I was like 10 or 11 years old, the bigger kids in the neighborhood teased me for wearing these purplish pants my mom bought me because they were on sale. They were calling me a "fag", and it nearly brought me to tears. But I knew for myself that I was not. Fast forward 10 years, and I meet up with these same guys with my hot girlfriend, and they had none. Lesson is that I never really needed to react to their insults and accusations.
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  #1162  
Old 15.01.2015, 13:27
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Marton, I'd really, really like to see the French doing this.... But let's fabulate for the sake of it.

Anyway, it wouldn't be anywhere in Europe, perhaps anywhere in EU only.
You mean there is a Europe outside of the EU

Yes the European Arrest warrant is valid throughout the EU; I assume not part of the bilateral treaties but I do not know exactly.
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  #1163  
Old 15.01.2015, 14:17
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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The key word there is "self", not "other". The value of words, pictures and expressions should rise and fall on their own merits; just like any other goods. Its determined by its consumers and public opinion.
.
Public opinion could be easily (or not that easily, depending on the subject) manipulated, so I'm not so sure as you that the words, pictures and expressions rise and fall on their own merit. We wouldn't have this big advertisement industry, would we?
Anyway, glad that you got a hot girlfriend to prove them wrong.

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You mean there is a Europe outside of the EU

Yes the European Arrest warrant is valid throughout the EU; I assume not part of the bilateral treaties but I do not know exactly.
I know, such a disgrace!
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  #1164  
Old 15.01.2015, 14:53
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Public opinion could be easily (or not that easily, depending on the subject) manipulated, so I'm not so sure as you that the words, pictures and expressions rise and fall on their own merit. We wouldn't have this big advertisement industry, would we?
Anyway, glad that you got a hot girlfriend to prove them wrong.
True, but you can challenge and contest public opinion through Free Speech, which is the civilized process of democracy. You can stay within the guidelines of the laws, or skirt the edge of it while accepting its consequences. But what is uncivilized is to brutally neutralize it, either through physical violence or even intellectual dishonesty.

We need to elevate our intellectual capacity to take in dissent and still respect the human beings behind them. For those who claim to be religious, these are tests and opportunities to demonstrate and develop patience, perserverance, tolerance, true peace and love. If you are going to talk the talk, you have to walk the walk.
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  #1165  
Old 15.01.2015, 15:12
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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True, but you can challenge and contest public opinion through Free Speech, which is the civilized process of democracy. You can stay within the guidelines of the laws, or skirt the edge of it while accepting its consequences. But what is uncivilized is to brutally neutralize it, either through physical violence or even intellectual dishonesty.

We need to elevate our intellectual capacity to take in dissent and still respect the human beings behind them. For those who claim to be religious, these are tests and opportunities to demonstrate and develop patience, perserverance, tolerance, true peace and love. If you are going to talk the talk, you have to walk the walk.
I don't know if it could be made any more clear that even regular Muslims were not happy with the cartoons. I think there're huge differences between Muslims and Christians regarding the way religious symbols should be respected, which are probably irreconcilable.
Don't see what's more to be said on it.

Apparently, the founder of Charlie Hebdo thinks the editor Stephane Charbonnier dragged his team to death.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ir-deaths.html
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  #1166  
Old 15.01.2015, 15:28
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I think there're huge differences between Muslims and Christians regarding the way religious symbols should be respected, which are probably irreconcilable.
Not really, Charlie Hebdo has faced over a dozen lawsuits from Christian groups on similar grounds.
Some of the drawings directed at the Church are truly vulgar, I would personally be embarrassed to be seen holding a copy.
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  #1167  
Old 15.01.2015, 15:33
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Not really, Charlie Hebdo has faced over a dozen lawsuits from Christian groups on similar grounds.
Some of the drawings directed at the Church are truly vulgar, I would personally be embarrassed to be seen holding a copy.
Thanks. Read they were sued by some Catholic organisations. (no wonder) Still, don't think that the vast majority of regular Christians would give more than a thought to this kind of satire.
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  #1168  
Old 15.01.2015, 15:41
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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The key word there is "self", not "other". The value of words, pictures and expressions should rise and fall on their own merits; just like any other goods. Its determined by its consumers and public opinion.

When I was like 10 or 11 years old, the bigger kids in the neighborhood teased me for wearing these purplish pants my mom bought me because they were on sale. They were calling me a "fag", and it nearly brought me to tears. But I knew for myself that I was not. Fast forward 10 years, and I meet up with these same guys with my hot girlfriend, and they had none. Lesson is that I never really needed to react to their insults and accusations.
Photos? !!
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  #1169  
Old 15.01.2015, 15:42
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I think there're huge differences between Muslims and Christians regarding the way religious symbols should be respected, which are probably irreconcilable.
Don't see what's
It certainly could be reconciled through proper communication.


This is a beautiful and powerful hashtag from Muslims expressing love for Muhammad. #whoismuhammad

This I totally understand and respect as a response to the cartoon. Now I can hear how it hurt them and can better empathize. I just couldn't sympathize with the threats and violent response.
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  #1170  
Old 15.01.2015, 15:51
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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It certainly could be reconciled through proper communication.


This is a beautiful and powerful hashtag from Muslims expressing love for Muhammad. #whoismuhammad

This I totally understand and respect as a response to the cartoon. Now I can hear how it hurt them and can better empathize. I just couldn't sympathize with the threats and violent response.
Well I would have understood it and respected it anyway, even after seeing the cartoons. That was only satire. But, each to their own.
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  #1171  
Old 15.01.2015, 16:34
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Not really, Charlie Hebdo has faced over a dozen lawsuits from Christian groups on similar grounds.
Some of the drawings directed at the Church are truly vulgar, I would personally be embarrassed to be seen holding a copy.

Indeed- as said, I grew up with Hari-Kiri, the predecessor to Charlie Hebdo- and always found ti so vulgar and gratuitous, and so mysoginist too. Wolinsky of course was Jewish, born in North Africa and served in the Algerian war. Perhaps one of the reasons Sené was got rid of due to lampooning of some aspects of Judaism and Israeli politics.

Wolinsky was a regular at the Auberge du Soleil in Petit Saconnex in Geneva, and local friends always said how badly he treated women, always touching up the waitresses and making lewd comments. Some of his drawings made jokes about rape, and women asking for it. Can remember one cartoon of a naked well built blonde, held upside down on a stake by 2 black africans 'natives' taking her to the cooking pot. One of them says 'shall we rape her a bit first' and the other replies 'nah it spoils the taste' and the woman saying 'yes, yes, yes'! Never found it funny myself even all those years ago.

As Castro says, the Catholic Church has complained about CH in the Press and the courts.

An interesting case testin the concept of Free Speech- Dieudonné. Now I am not fond of the guys style as a rapper and comic- but the other day he was arrested and an injunction put on him for saying 'I am Charlie Coulibaly' (The Vincennes killer). And he says 'where is my free speech'- why can't I say that I feel differently to the Charlier crowed? He is supposed to do a show on 27th of January in Fontainemelon in Val-de-Ruz above Neuchâtel- it would have normally attracted a few 100- but it will be interesting to see what will indeed happen.

The police and politicians there are totally unprepared for the event. So free speech for some, free speech for all- free speech ???

In the meantime- people who would have never ever have even given a glance to Charlie Hebdo are fighting for them at the kiosks as souvenirs and 'investments' - some already selling on e-bay, etc, for large sums!!! What is that all about? The whole thing is turning into a farce.

The reason I mentioned the UK yesterday? Well because it is pretty close to France, and because Charlie Hebdo is going on sale there today- and it is likely to 'stir feelings'. And no, lives will not be at risk due to the large Muslim population in the UK, but due to a small proportion of Islamist possible Jihadist that may be lurking there. Should the majority of peaceful Muslims in the UK then be tarred with the same brush? And the lives of Muslims maybe put at risk by stirring hatred the other way round- with the hot heads (mirror image) of the EDL (English Defense League) ready to pounce (difficult to aportion 'fear' as such, but those guys scare me more).

In the meantime, what is 'wrong' with this photo? Or who is missing and why?


Last edited by Odile; 15.01.2015 at 20:33.
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  #1172  
Old 15.01.2015, 19:08
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

A pleasant video of the Charlie Hebdo editors table, back from 2006.

http://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion...=1194811622205

I dont see any nefarious intent to insult or blaspheme, just a bunch of people discussing how best to bring out the ridiculousness in fundamentalism.
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  #1173  
Old 15.01.2015, 19:30
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Quoting an article:
When you say “Je suis Charlie”, is that an endorsement of Charlie Hebdo’s depiction of the French justice minister, Christiane Taubira, who is black, drawn as a monkey?
This is a lie and proves that the author didn't understand or didn't want to understand. The caricature's point was the logo of the Front National at the bottom left corner… because this is the way the Front National really thinks behind the rewording and sugar coating of Marine Le Pen the past years and it was referring to a monkey caricature of Taubira made by a local politician somewhere in the south that was plain racist. Charlie Hebdo's readers know the context and recognize the punt made. A random google search by a guy with no knowledge of the French public debate nor the ability to read his sources properly can't get it right.

Once again, people comment on a things they don't understand and have no clue about but bent to fit their agenda.

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  • A man of 22 was jailed on Tuesday for a year for posting a video mocking one of the three murdered policemen
  • A man of 20 was jailed in Orleans for shouting "long live the Kalash[(nikov]" at police in a shopping centre
There is a law in France against apology of terrorism, French authorities use it. It's like declaring your flame of admiration for the 9.11. terrorists in the US, you'll be arrested and you won't be able to write on an internet forum for a while. Same.
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Last edited by Faltrad; 15.01.2015 at 19:44.
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  #1174  
Old 15.01.2015, 19:52
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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This is a lie and proves that the author didn't understand or didn't want to understand. The caricature's point was the logo of the Front National at the bottom left corner… because this is the way the Front National really thinks behind the rewording and sugar coating of Marine Le Pen the past years and it was referring to a monkey caricature of Taubira made by a local politician somewhere in the south that was plain racist. Charlie Hebdo's readers know the context and recognize the punt made.
Just for context, this is the picture the author is referring to.



To me its not important whether or not this was a very clever, ironic take on the National Front. What is important is the way it was perceived by the subject (a black woman politician struggling against racism and chauvinism in France).

Did they ask her permission before printing it??
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Old 15.01.2015, 20:17
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Did they ask her permission before printing it??
There is NOT DOUBT whatsoever that this cartoon is AGAINST the racist speech and attitude of the Front National in defense of Taubira. And the title is as clear as it gets to identify the target: Marine Le Pen.

Don't do the talking for Taubira. She knows perfectly well what Charlie Hebdo really stands for, she is a clever person and knows how much they did for putting the debate about racism in politics on the table week after weeks. The Front National is one of the main target of the caricaturists. As always, these caricatures are really not that difficult to understand with a bit of knowledge and honesty about the French public debate. My students are 15-17 years old and they get it perfectly well.
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  #1176  
Old 15.01.2015, 20:35
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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A pleasant video of the Charlie Hebdo editors table, back from 2006.

http://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion...=1194811622205

I dont see any nefarious intent to insult or blaspheme, just a bunch of people discussing how best to bring out the ridiculousness in fundamentalism.
I hope all the apologists and accusers of this team (e.g. "they would be alive had they kept their mouths shut!") would take a look at this video. Touching.
The only one who expressed similar views but I can understand why, was one of the founders of this magazine. When you lose someone so close everything becomes irrelevant.
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Old 15.01.2015, 21:01
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

The speech that French Prime Minister Manuel Walls gave yesterday before the National country's Assembly reminds me of the "J'accuse" letter written in 1898 by Emile Zola.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moDVZWavdAU








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  #1178  
Old 15.01.2015, 21:26
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

And people talk, and talk- and buy CH...

but that woman, who lost her son to the terrorists in Toulouse last year- she works, day in, day out- to try and find solutions and hope. She is my heroin. Give her your support. Unlike the cartoonists she is not a millionaire either.

http://youtu.be/fnmYJmM8E2M
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  #1179  
Old 15.01.2015, 22:13
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

The man who saved the customers in the supermarket is to be made a French citizen next week
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Old 15.01.2015, 22:48
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

an interesting portrait of the brothers (sorry but in french)

http://www.reporterre.net/L-enfance-...ble-des-freres

and a first hand account of the shootings (in french too, sorry if posted before)

http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/articl...4839_3224.html
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