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  #141  
Old 08.01.2015, 12:42
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I think its also the "angry young men" phenomenon. We all go through a rebellious phase where we think we need to fix the world's problems by applying radical measures. And then as the hormones settle down and we get jobs, family, mortgages and responsibility we largely forget about our earlier intentions and end up denying we ever thought that way. I don't think it is particularly restricted to any racial group. But it can be mitigated by positive role models, by teachers and other persons of authority or respect (including imams, or sports coaches, or whoever) who listen, understand, discuss and take yoofs seriously and encourage them to apply their energy in a positive way.
This is not a case of a couple of teenage delinquents. Today's suspects are a minor detail to a larger story. There is a whole subculture behind this.


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The solution offered by Makarian is two-fold. Gain the trust of the communities so that they become the eyes and ears of the security services.. and the second, much more difficult solution is to have better outreach services to disaffected North African youth. In my mind its admitting that you have a problem with racism, and that the only way to make them feel French is to treat them like they are French, and not undesirables banished to the banlieues to rot on welfare.
This isn't a situation that was created by French culture. This is NOT a French situation. These are not caused by French culture's inabiilty to integrate people from other races. Modern French culture is one of the most anti-racist cultures around. I see plenty of Africans and Asians seemlessly integrate into French culture without feeling the need to violently lash out like this. Furthermore, Islam is not even a race.

The problem here is a movement that is embedded within the global Islamic community, and there are no clear ways of differentiating them from the majority of that community who are not like that. These events occur from Nigeria all the way to the Pacific Ocean.

I understand the reticence to associate any of this to Islam. It is damaging to Islam, and most of its victims are Muslims. But the fact of the matter is that these are not going to be solved by any other groups other than Muslims themselves. The French will not be solving this, as the French did not create it.

When you have politicians and guilt-laden liberals who know little about Islam, jumping to claim that these events have nothing to do with Islam and Muslims, I suppose it is an attempt to not offend innocent Muslims, and unruffle feathers. But in doing so, it also prevents honest intelligent Muslims from dealing with this reality in their communities. I don't think this PC approach does Muslims any favors. It does nothing to change certain realities. It just paints over a problem, prolongs it, only to re-erupt in a more shocking and sensational way. Whether you believe it or not, there are plenty of Muslims who have the intellectual and emotional capacity to honestly discuss this reality without subterfuge. The smarter ones realize what is at stake here.
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  #142  
Old 08.01.2015, 12:46
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I guess that most of us hold our freedom of speech as being something sacred, but I think we also need to realize and respect the fact that there are a lot of people in the world who hold their religion as being something sacred. I can pretty much guarantee that if any of us had been born into an Islamic country, then we too would be a Muslim. Cultural "brainwashing" is, unfortunately, not so easy to transcend, and it's something that I think often manifests itself in ways that we are not even aware of.
philosophically, "freedom of religion" is a concept that is subsumed within the broader concept of "freedom of expression". in other words, without the latter it is simply not philosophically possible to have the former.

honestly, I can't tell if you are intentionally being thick or simply aren't connecting what should be reasonably obvious dots.
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  #143  
Old 08.01.2015, 12:47
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I searched and found my four colored "Bic pen" , must be about 30 years old ,does not work but looks good in my shirt poked. Ironicle "Made in France"
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  #144  
Old 08.01.2015, 12:49
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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This isn't a situation that was created by French culture. This is NOT a French situation. These are not caused by French culture's inabiilty to integrate people from other races.
on certain levels I agree with you, but you may be over-stating your case. there is a reasonably long and rather significant French history on some issues that are more than just tangentially-related to the current situation within the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961
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  #145  
Old 08.01.2015, 12:51
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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For those who read French, here is an interesting take on the US and British reactions from a French perspective.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2015/0...-se-ravise.php

The comments section also has some posts worth noting.
Nasty Twitter abuse and calls for FT Europe editor Tony Barber to resign for writing this... proving that not all free speech is equal.

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  #146  
Old 08.01.2015, 12:55
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Nasty Twitter abuse and calls for FT Europe editor Tony Barber to resign for writing this... proving that not all free speech is equal.
Sure that wasn't written by Olygirl or Pancakes?
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  #147  
Old 08.01.2015, 12:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Nasty Twitter abuse and calls for FT Europe editor Tony Barber to resign for writing this... proving that not all free speech is equal.

"freedom of speech" is entirely different from "freedom to get paid for your speech".

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  #148  
Old 08.01.2015, 12:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Alright, let's go to TEL AVIV and you show me a paper where we can walk into major rooms and attack the top brass --- a free coffee for you
You can say what you want about anyone in Israel and mock and belief in Israel. It's done daily in mainstream media - most watched movie until recently was one mocking Judaism.

I'll have an Espresso please
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  #149  
Old 08.01.2015, 13:02
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Nasty Twitter abuse and calls for FT Europe editor Tony Barber to resign for writing this... proving that not all free speech is equal.
Isn't "that Freedom of Speech" in action?
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  #150  
Old 08.01.2015, 13:07
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Pancakes was offering a guarantee.
Okay, I can pretty much (as Pancakes said) guarantee if you're born in Turkey you'll be brought up as a Muslim - but it's NOT a requirement, being a secular state.

BBC report on the killing of the French policewoman today.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30721677
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  #151  
Old 08.01.2015, 13:39
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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It's not a question of requirement. It's where you're born and brought up that governs what religion you start life with.

But if you must have other countries: Turkey 99.8% Muslim despite being an official secular state, France predominately Catholic despite being a secular state, UK predominately Anglican, US predominately Protestant, the list goes on. So yes, if you're born into a country where Islam is the dominant religion you're quite likely to be a Muslim.
But how many people in France and Turkey attend church regularily and pray on a regular basis, I saw a survey about Turkey where the numbers were under 60% and I assume much lower in France.
Predominately does not mean much if people do not actually follow the religion
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  #152  
Old 08.01.2015, 13:45
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Am I alone in thinking that this discussion deserves a thread of its own rather than tacked on the end of a general thread about shootings?
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  #153  
Old 08.01.2015, 13:53
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Am I alone in thinking that this discussion deserves a thread of its own rather than tacked on the end of a general thread about shootings?
I think so too... hold tight folks, thread closed until I've split the posts.

Edit: Done
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  #154  
Old 08.01.2015, 14:40
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

After the strong emotions triggered by the barbarian attack on Charlie Hebdo, now comes the time to think about solutions to stop this terrorist madness.
On French TV yesterday some asked the muslim community leaders to show determination and take action against those terrorists and ideologies. Let’s state some facts and describe some solutions discussed by different people already.

Profile of the authors of those terrorists attacks
- Young males (20-40)
- 2nd-3rd generation immigrants or recent converts
- have already some social problems and even criminal records
- traveled to armed conflicts areas (syria, iraq, afghanistan, bosnia, tchechenia,…)
- often become radicalized after spending time in prison
- use internet/social media for information or recruitment
- capacity to use heavy weapons
- close link to criminal groups to finance activities or to source weapons

Given that there are probably 1000s matching this profile now in Syria/Iraq and that at some point they will be back in Europe we can only fear to see more of these murder attacks.

So what can be done? How can we immunize the society against this downward spiral?

Here are some short and long term solutions proposed by different people for Europe:

- reinstate death penalty, Marine Le Pen (extreme right in France)
- Block muslim immigration to Europe (several right-wing groups in France/Germany)
- Move muslim population based in Europe to other areas (Zemmour, Finkielkraut in France)
- Banning of Islam (coran, mosques, halal food etc…) in France/Europe (Christine Tasin, Univ.Prof in France)
- Put a policeman behind every potential terrorist as defined by the profile
- ask the muslim community to become a “big brother” to police and denounce any potential suspect
- make Islam a state-controlled institution

any other options you can see?
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  #155  
Old 08.01.2015, 14:48
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Here are some short and long term solutions proposed by different people for Europe:

- reinstate death penalty, Marine Le Pen (extreme right in France)
- Block muslim immigration to Europe (several right-wing groups in France/Germany)
- Move muslim population based in Europe to other areas (Zemmour, Finkielkraut in France)
- Banning of Islam (coran, mosques, halal food etc…) in France/Europe (Christine Tasin, Univ.Prof in France)
- Put a policeman behind every potential terrorist as defined by the profile
- ask the muslim community to become a “big brother” to police and denounce any potential suspect
- make Islam a state-controlled institution

any other options you can see?

This is a bit like asking a car mechanic to help with a dental problem.

For me, the most sensible take so far is the one proposed by Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi on the day before the attack: Egypt's President calls for a 'religious revolution'

I think Muslims need to define what Islam is, and communicate it.
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  #156  
Old 08.01.2015, 15:00
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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After the strong emotions triggered by the barbarian attack on Charlie Hebdo, now comes the time to think about solutions to stop this terrorist madness.
On French TV yesterday some asked the muslim community leaders to show determination and take action against those terrorists and ideologies. Let’s state some facts and describe some solutions discussed by different people already.

Profile of the authors of those terrorists attacks
- Young males (20-40)
- 2nd-3rd generation immigrants or recent converts
- have already some social problems and even criminal records
- traveled to armed conflicts areas (syria, iraq, afghanistan, bosnia, tchechenia,…)
- often become radicalized after spending time in prison
- use internet/social media for information or recruitment
- capacity to use heavy weapons
- close link to criminal groups to finance activities or to source weapons

Given that there are probably 1000s matching this profile now in Syria/Iraq and that at some point they will be back in Europe we can only fear to see more of these murder attacks.

So what can be done? How can we immunize the society against this downward spiral?

Here are some short and long term solutions proposed by different people for Europe:

- reinstate death penalty, Marine Le Pen (extreme right in France)
- Block muslim immigration to Europe (several right-wing groups in France/Germany)
- Move muslim population based in Europe to other areas (Zemmour, Finkielkraut in France)
- Banning of Islam (coran, mosques, halal food etc…) in France/Europe (Christine Tasin, Univ.Prof in France)
- Put a policeman behind every potential terrorist as defined by the profile
- ask the muslim community to become a “big brother” to police and denounce any potential suspect
- make Islam a state-controlled institution

any other options you can see?
western countries should refuse to do business with totalitarian regimes in Asia, the Middle East and Africa. the underlying problem here has nothing to do with religion, but rather with totalitarianism in the countries with whom we choose to do business. refusing to do business with those countries won't necessarily change the local situation (it sure didn't in Cuba, for example), but it will significantly reduce the likelihood of local terrorism being exported to the west - and let's not kid ourselves, the Saudis are financing terrorism with US dollars, not Riyal. by cutting off foreign investment capital, we cut off access to the kind of funding required to finance the activities we are seeing.

additionally, by refusing to participate in the oppression and exploitation of local populations, we can assuage the absurd societal guilt we seem to feel that compels us to accept so many otherwise unacceptable immigration candidates from these regions. as an American, I am unable to emigrate anywhere in Europe without demonstrating to the authorities that my immigration will be accretive to the local economy, why should it be any different for immigrants from Algeria or Syria?

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I think Muslims need to define what Islam is, and communicate it.
res ipsa loquitur.
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  #157  
Old 08.01.2015, 15:01
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

I am also a strong believer of freedom of speech without any retribution, but I am also aware that the world is not ideal and I am aware that all actions will have some sort reactions...

no I am not saying that it is the fault of the magazine, but there is nothing new under the sky that there are fanatics out there and Europe is no safe haven...

so I'll go with Louie on this one..."of course, of course...but maybe..."
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  #158  
Old 08.01.2015, 15:03
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

latest news says the suspects are on the road back to paris, looks like its not over yet
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  #159  
Old 08.01.2015, 15:04
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I think Muslims need to define what Islam is, and communicate it.
Given the clear and present danger of radicalised youth returning from conflict zones, I think a more sensible approach would be the outreach one. Brainwashing and radicalisation are reversible processes. Some of the best Muslim youth workers in the UK are all ex members of Hizb u Tahrir and Al Muhajiroun, because they speak with experience and authority.
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Old 08.01.2015, 15:06
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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