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View Poll Results: Had you read Charlie Hebdo before the massacre last week?
Yes, and I thought it was interesting and thought provoking 13 9.70%
Yes, and I thought it was dreadful and offensive 7 5.22%
Yes, but I have opinion either way 6 4.48%
I'd heard of it, but never read it 30 22.39%
Never read it 78 58.21%
Voters: 134. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old 12.01.2015, 17:04
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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I cannot think of any white comedian who pokes fun at blacks in the USA but I can imagine that its not totally impossible.
There is Robin Thicke, and maybe Eminem.
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  #62  
Old 12.01.2015, 17:10
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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Without those "Je Suis Charlie" symbols, I would hate to have seen how people would have chosen to express their sentiments otherwise
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  #63  
Old 12.01.2015, 17:23
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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That's typical of their humor/satire, it always has a double meaning. The cartoon is not meant to say that the girls are happy to be kidnapped and pregnant but it recalls the French belief that many muslims in France have many children to get social benefits. You can't really get the meanings unless you're very aware of what's going on in France.
I've been looking at this cartoon and coming back to it all day but I still find it completely sick. Its not like those girls chose to be kidnapped and raped so why are they worthy of satire? I understand its double entendre (poking fun at the no benefits for single mum's brigade) but ultimately I see this as needy attention grabbing rather than satirical.
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  #64  
Old 12.01.2015, 17:33
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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I've been looking at this cartoon and coming back to it all day but I still find it completely sick. Its not like those girls chose to be kidnapped and raped so why are they worthy of satire? I understand its double entendre (poking fun at the no benefits for single mum's brigade) but ultimately I see this as needy attention grabbing rather than satirical.
I agree. Its a showcase for the art of satire, for art's sake. The more lines of alternate realities you can cross and juxtapose, the more it is valued in the genre. I also find it tasteless, so I just walk away and ignore it. But why do people who do not like it have to bring attention it? Why can't it be simply ignored?
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  #65  
Old 12.01.2015, 17:41
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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I've been looking at this cartoon and coming back to it all day but I still find it completely sick. Its not like those girls chose to be kidnapped and raped so why are they worthy of satire? I understand its double entendre (poking fun at the no benefits for single mum's brigade) but ultimately I see this as needy attention grabbing rather than satirical.
Therein lies the difference between rational thinking beings and violence motivated people. You find it sick. You write about it on a public forum. Your opinion is there for all to read. Or you drive around there in a Renault and execute the artists because they deserved it.

There's no definition for satire. Clever, sick, funny or just mocking someone's poor fortune. Humor is what it is. When you try to censor it, you please some and alienate more.

In the real world, someone drawing a cartoon won't change the harsh realities of being raped by thugs in Nigeria. Is the sheer irony western arrogance or a smug sense of "we know better than the third world? I wouldn't make public jokes about rape victims either, but I think I know the difference between a drawing and the real world.
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Old 12.01.2015, 17:47
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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#JellRideAvecVous
Yeah, why aren't the French behaving like cheese eating surrender monkeys this time?

Wouldn't #illridewithJew be a better display of unity?
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  #67  
Old 12.01.2015, 22:37
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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I've been looking at this cartoon and coming back to it all day but I still find it completely sick. Its not like those girls chose to be kidnapped and raped so why are they worthy of satire? I understand its double entendre (poking fun at the no benefits for single mum's brigade) but ultimately I see this as needy attention grabbing rather than satirical.
The point is that the accusation against immigrants for money making by baby production should be as offensive in Europe as this scene is. Not the kidnapped girls are the target of the satire but the western reader with easy short cuts about immigrant families ending up in pure racism that is not identified as such in our western societies. They show in the cartoon that the same reasoning applied to Boko Haram rape children is absurd, totally indecent and sickening. The cartoon questions why we do not feel the same outrage in western countries when the same accusations are made. The outrage is a necessary part of the transgression and the point. But the outrage is not aimed at what is shown, it's aimed at who is looking. Perhaps it's just me being French, but I find the point very clear and clever. I'm used to Charlie Hebdo and Harakiri, like any French high school student.
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  #68  
Old 13.01.2015, 03:52
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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But the Brits do the best Nazi jokes, don't you agree?
Well, they are better at it than the other allies, but that's not really a challenge with the others being America, France and Russia...

Problem with most British comedy on WW2 is that they are obsessed with the war - way more than anyone else even including the Americans. I personally think it's because it was the last hurrah of the British empire...

I think the Norwegians are actually better at it (warning: Nazi Zombies...)
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  #69  
Old 13.01.2015, 08:37
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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The point is that the accusation against immigrants for money making by baby production should be as offensive in Europe as this scene is. Not the kidnapped girls are the target of the satire but the western reader with easy short cuts about immigrant families ending up in pure racism that is not identified as such in our western societies. They show in the cartoon that the same reasoning applied to Boko Haram rape children is absurd, totally indecent and sickening. The cartoon questions why we do not feel the same outrage in western countries when the same accusations are made. The outrage is a necessary part of the transgression and the point. But the outrage is not aimed at what is shown, it's aimed at who is looking. Perhaps it's just me being French, but I find the point very clear and clever. I'm used to Charlie Hebdo and Harakiri, like any French high school student.
Thanks for your detailed comment
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Old 13.01.2015, 09:43
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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The point is that the accusation against immigrants for money making by baby production should be as offensive in Europe as this scene is. Not the kidnapped girls are the target of the satire but the western reader with easy short cuts about immigrant families ending up in pure racism that is not identified as such in our western societies. They show in the cartoon that the same reasoning applied to Boko Haram rape children is absurd, totally indecent and sickening. The cartoon questions why we do not feel the same outrage in western countries when the same accusations are made. The outrage is a necessary part of the transgression and the point. But the outrage is not aimed at what is shown, it's aimed at who is looking. Perhaps it's just me being French, but I find the point very clear and clever. I'm used to Charlie Hebdo and Harakiri, like any French high school student.
Indeed. I think one can even make a whole analysis out of it.
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  #71  
Old 13.01.2015, 10:17
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

I'd say Jeff Dunham predicted the tragedy on his show in Malaysia last year...

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  #72  
Old 13.01.2015, 11:10
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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Well, they are better at it than the other allies, but that's not really a challenge with the others being America, France and Russia...

Problem with most British comedy on WW2 is that they are obsessed with the war - way more than anyone else even including the Americans. I personally think it's because it was the last hurrah of the British empire...
It is true that my Norwegian relatives have an obsession with a Nazis that is at least on par with the British one. Furthermore, they have the "advantage" of actually having been occupied meaning there are lots of heroic stories of how somebody's grandma said rude words to some senior Nazi without him realizing or spat in his food or how farmers sabotaged things while making it look like natural causes or managing to act sufficiently stupid so that the Nazis never suspected them.

In contrast to the Brits, saying one thing while thinking the complete opposite is not really inherent to Norwegian culture, so just doing that in a consistent way was in itself a feat for them.
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  #73  
Old 13.01.2015, 11:26
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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Therein lies the difference between rational thinking beings and violence motivated people. You find it sick. You write about it on a public forum. Your opinion is there for all to read. Or you drive around there in a Renault and execute the artists because they deserved it.

There's no definition for satire. Clever, sick, funny or just mocking someone's poor fortune. Humor is what it is. When you try to censor it, you please some and alienate more.

In the real world, someone drawing a cartoon won't change the harsh realities of being raped by thugs in Nigeria. Is the sheer irony western arrogance or a smug sense of "we know better than the third world? I wouldn't make public jokes about rape victims either, but I think I know the difference between a drawing and the real world.
I agree with you in some respects, but at the same time, this makes me wonder how you would react if, for example, someone drew a cartoon of one of your small children being viciously sexually assaulted, using it to try to make a point of some sort, and then proceeded to display those images, publicly -- and were received by an audience that somehow found the images "amusing" or "clever."

Of course, it's easy for us to say "Well, if someone posted images like that of my child being sexually assaulted, I certainly wouldn't resort to violence because of it." But I think there is truly no way of knowing that, for sure, unless we are actually put in that position. We can pride ourselves on our ability to reason as much as we want, but I do think that, for even the most peaceful and otherwise rational individual, there does exist a latent violence that can be triggered.

So many people are using the atrocity in Paris to defend the freedom of speech, because that is what we find sacred. Yet, at the same time, we (and this magazine) have offered very little respect for that which others hold sacred.
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  #74  
Old 13.01.2015, 11:46
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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Of course, it's easy for us to say "Well, if someone posted images like that of my child being sexually assaulted, I certainly wouldn't resort to violence because of it." But I think there is truly no way of knowing that, for sure, unless we are actually put in that position. We can pride ourselves on our ability to reason as much as we want, but I do think that, for even the most peaceful and otherwise rational individual, there does exist a latent violence that can be triggered.
Plot twist: The victims of Boko Haram are actually mostly Christian (not sure about the last town they burnt down as this is Muslim territory, but definitely the school girls which the cartoon is based on...). It is not the relatives of the rape victims who attacked, but people who have the same believes as the rapists...
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  #75  
Old 13.01.2015, 12:08
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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I agree with you in some respects, but at the same time, this makes me wonder how you would react if, for example, someone drew a cartoon of one of your small children being viciously sexually assaulted, using it to try to make a point of some sort, and then proceeded to display those images, publicly -- and were received by an audience that somehow found the images "amusing" or "clever."

Of course, it's easy for us to say "Well, if someone posted images like that of my child being sexually assaulted, I certainly wouldn't resort to violence because of it." But I think there is truly no way of knowing that, for sure, unless we are actually put in that position. We can pride ourselves on our ability to reason as much as we want, but I do think that, for even the most peaceful and otherwise rational individual, there does exist a latent violence that can be triggered.

So many people are using the atrocity in Paris to defend the freedom of speech, because that is what we find sacred. Yet, at the same time, we (and this magazine) have offered very little respect for that which others hold sacred.
You seem to have real difficulty grasping the Western concept of freedom of speech... because the point is we are free to criticise things (within the limits previously discussed in the thread) that other people find sacred, the reason being that just because someone finds something sacred does not mean that it is right, that it is just, or that it is beyond criticism.

No-one, however, has the right under any of our laws to visit violence on someone for expressing that opinion.
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  #76  
Old 14.01.2015, 09:45
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

This week's edition is flying off the shelves with the largest number of copies ever.
Ironically the reporter this morning said Charlie Hebdo was in serious financial difficulties before last week but following a cash donation from google and ( I think) the French government plus the increased revenue from this week's sales their future is assured for the moment. ( the proceeds of this edition are being donated to the victim's families but I think the increase in sales will continue for a while)

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  #77  
Old 14.01.2015, 09:54
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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This week's edition is flying off the shelves with the largest number of copies ever.
Ironically the reporter this morning said Charlie Hebdo was in serious financial difficulties before last week but following a cash donation from google and ( I think) the French government plus the increased revenue from this week's sales their future is assured for the moment.
It appears that as well as killing all those innocent people, the terrorists have shot themselves in the foot.
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  #78  
Old 14.01.2015, 09:56
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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This week's edition is flying off the shelves with the largest number of copies ever.
Ironically the reporter this morning said Charlie Hebdo was in serious financial difficulties before last week but following a cash donation from google and ( I think) the French government plus the increased revenue from this week's sales their future is assured for the moment.
Of course they still have difficulties, albeit not financial ones but more importantly in that they've recently lost a lot of their staff including the editor.
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  #79  
Old 14.01.2015, 10:04
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

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Of course they still have difficulties, albeit not financial ones but more importantly in that they've recently lost a lot of their staff including the editor.
Exactly, the have the money to continue but their most experienced cartoonists are all gone. It will be a very different magazine in the future I think
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Old 14.01.2015, 10:15
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Re: How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week?

Therein lies the irony. Everyone is jumping to the magazine's defense to allow them to continue their satirical outlook, but in reality no one would suffer one iota if it disappeared without a trace.

You could conclude that what a lot of people actually meant with their public grieving was, "we are really scared by radical IS terrorists running around Europe and maybe our neighbor with a headscarf, but we don't have anyway of dealing with it, so we'll all be Charlie and feel that we're protecting freedom of speech liberties we think we should have as a right".
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