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  #161  
Old 27.01.2015, 16:25
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Re: Smokers in Germany

Canada has banned smoking in any workplace: This included one's own truck if they are a truck driver.

This year they've pushed to ban smoking at bar/restaurant patios as well.

Among other rules, they're fairly progressive on the topic.
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  #162  
Old 27.01.2015, 16:31
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Re: Smokers in Germany

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I always found that the most funny argument of them all. 99% of the restaurant/bar/club staff are smokers (at least in Belgium that was the case).
And stuff the 1% who don't smoke and don't want to work in a smoky environment.

This is where direct democracy falls down. The majority make the decisions even if it's a minorities interests that are really the issue.
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Old 27.01.2015, 16:51
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Re: Smokers in Germany

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And stuff the 1% who don't smoke and don't want to work in a smoky environment.

This is where direct democracy falls down. The majority make the decisions even if it's a minorities interests that are really the issue.
I'd say this is where the market's self regulation falls down.

You would expect that if restaurants could themselves chose to be smoking or non smoking, market forces would cause them to cover both sectors in approximate relation to customer demand. Similarly, non smoking staff would find employment in non smoking restaurants.

In reality, this never happened, with smoking restaurants being the norm and non smoking restaurants being the rare exception. I'm not really sure why market forces failed so miserably in this case, but guess it has to do with the dynamics of partitioning. Chosing a restaurant is not like chosing a car or a computer because you don't chose it for yourself and stuff what the others think, but you try and find a compromise that suits everybody in your group. And of course restaurants tried tocater to that. If you try to cater to averages you get mediocrity.
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  #164  
Old 27.01.2015, 16:53
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Re: Smokers in Germany

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I'd say this is where the market's self regulation falls down.

You would expect that if restaurants could themselves chose to be smoking or non smoking, market forces would cause them to cover both sectors in approximate relation to demand. Similarly, non smoking staff would find employment in non smoking restaurants.

In reality, this never happened, with smoking restaurants being the norm and non smoking restaurants being the rare exception. I'm not really sure why market forces failed so miserably in this case, but guess it has to do with the dynamics of partitioning. Chosing a restaurant is not like chosing a car or a computer because you don't chose it for yourself and stuff what the others think, but you try and find a compromise that suits everybody in your group. And of course restaurants tried tocater to that. If you try to cater to averages you get mediocrity.
I think drug addiction tends to skew things as far as market norms are concerned.
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Old 28.01.2015, 11:40
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Re: Smokers in Germany

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And stuff the 1% who don't smoke and don't want to work in a smoky environment.

This is where direct democracy falls down. The majority make the decisions even if it's a minorities interests that are really the issue.
I`ve yet to see a restaurant or any other catering business where there is not an outside balcony, or little table and chairs/benches outside the back door where the cook/helpers/waitresses take their breaks. . . . . and smoke cigarettes or indulge in whatever else they put in their mouths.

If one doesn`t want to work in any particular environment then one doesn`t apply for a job there - makes sense, neh?

Me, I would never apply for a job skinning animals for fur coats, or any other form of animal skin/fur enterprise, even the final selling of the cute designer garments, no matter how high the salary is. See? Most everyone in 1st world countries have the good fortune to be able to choose to work where one is happy in the environment.
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Old 28.01.2015, 11:46
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Re: Smokers in Germany

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If one doesn`t want to work in any particular environment then one doesn`t apply for a job there - makes sense, neh?
I'd like to think that health and safety at work has improved slightly since they sent kids up chimneys, even if those kids said they actually enjoyed going up them.
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Old 28.01.2015, 17:00
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Re: Smokers in Germany

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(...) banned smoking (...)
(...) ban smoking (...)
they're fairly progressive on the topic.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I struggle to see how more prohibition = progress.

I could see how closing the salary gap between women and men would be a progress for the society.

But prohibiting smoking even in your own car? I don't see.

In Switzerland, it is considered a progress to have places were addicts can shoot H safely, because they have seen that prohibition does not solve anything at all. I tend to agree with that.

Last edited by kikeo; 28.01.2015 at 17:24.
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Old 28.01.2015, 17:04
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Re: Smokers in Germany

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Maybe I'm wrong, but I struggle to see how more prohibition = progress.

Progress is anything a "progressive" wants it to be.


Today it's banning smoking. Tomorrow, it might be compulsory sterilisation, euthanasia, whatever.


If our intellectual betters approve, then it's progress. If they don't, then it's reactionary ignorance.


It's all for our own good, naturally.
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  #169  
Old 28.01.2015, 17:09
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Re: Smokers in Germany

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Maybe I'm wrong, but I struggle to see how more prohibition = progress.

I could see how closing the salary gap between women and men would be a progress for the society.

But prohibiting smoking even in your own car? I don't see.

In Switzerland, it is considered a progress to have places were addicts can shoot H safely, because they have seen at pure prohibition does not solve anything at all. I tend to agree with that.

The progress is to stop the population from smoking. This has a direct effect on the population health, life expectancy etc. etc.

Such prohibitions have a multiple effects. Eliminating smoking in public places will reduce second hand smoke issues. Eliminating smoking in places of employment will reduce costs to the employer for health-related loses.

Overall prohibitions limit the visibility and overall acceptance of the habit and reduce the risk of new smokers taking on the addictive disease. This is also accomplished by not allowing stores to visibly display cigarettes in their shops.

Of course there are many rebuttals towards these methods, however without a direct metric to measure them, they do seem to be working with smoking rates decreasing in the Country.
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  #170  
Old 28.01.2015, 17:33
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Re: Smokers in Germany

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The progress is to stop the population from smoking. This has a direct effect on the population health, life expectancy etc. etc.

Such prohibitions have a multiple effects. Eliminating smoking in public places will reduce second hand smoke issues. Eliminating smoking in places of employment will reduce costs to the employer for health-related loses.

Overall prohibitions limit the visibility and overall acceptance of the habit and reduce the risk of new smokers taking on the addictive disease. This is also accomplished by not allowing stores to visibly display cigarettes in their shops.

Of course there are many rebuttals towards these methods, however without a direct metric to measure them, they do seem to be working with smoking rates decreasing in the Country.
Well I guess progress would be to prohibit, among others :
- all machines and vehicles using internal combustion engines (after all, these emit substances hazarodus for health)
- all energy sources using the combustion of fossil fuels (same reason)
- alcohol (not only dangerous for those who drink it, but inderectly for the whole society, as it affects the drinkers' behaviour)
- red bull
- any non-water based paints and surface coatings
- PVC piping and windows/doors (when they are heated, so during installation, they emit dioxines)
- non-organic food
- GMOs
- pesticides (partially covered by the ban of non-organic food)
- asphalt on the roads (but that's OK, we've already banned most of the vehicles thanks to our previous bans)
- fluorescent light bulbs
- all equipment producing electro-magnetic fields (if the anti-progress crowd is complaining too hard, just ban those emitting micro-waves; ovens and mobile phones)
- production of plastics
- well just ban the whole petro-chemical industry
...

That's progress!!
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  #171  
Old 28.01.2015, 17:37
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Re: Smokers in Germany

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Well I guess progress would be to prohibit, among others :
- all machines and vehicles using internal combustion engines (after all, these emit substances hazarodus for health)
- all energy sources using the combustion of fossil fuels (same reason)
- alcohol (not only dangerous for those who drink it, but inderectly for the whole society, as it affects the drinkers' behaviour)
- red bull
- any non-water based paints and surface coatings
- PVC piping and windows/doors (when they are heated, so during installation, they emit dioxines)
- non-organic food
- GMOs
- pesticides (partially covered by the ban of non-organic food)
- asphalt on the roads (but that's OK, we've already banned most of the vehicles thanks to our previous bans)
- fluorescent light bulbs
- all equipment producing electro-magnetic fields (if the anti-progress crowd is complaining too hard, just ban those emitting micro-waves; ovens and mobile phones)
- production of plastics
- well just ban the whole petro-chemical industry
...

That's progress!!
Excellent list! I look forward to your thread on your progressive initiatives, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

But seriously, many on your list, albeit with good intentions to prohibit, have many positive uses and essential applications. Would take a lot of ignorance to pull a ban off on them.
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  #172  
Old 28.01.2015, 18:38
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Re: Smokers in Germany

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- all equipment producing electro-magnetic fields (if the anti-progress crowd is complaining too hard, just ban those emitting micro-waves; ovens and mobile phones)


That's progress!!

Using just this as an example - they don't cause cancer. Cigarettes do.

Can you see the difference?

Unless you're one of those new-age weirdos. Are you?
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  #173  
Old 29.01.2015, 07:58
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Re: Smokers in Germany

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I'd say this is where the market's self regulation falls down.

You would expect that if restaurants could themselves chose to be smoking or non smoking, market forces would cause them to cover both sectors in approximate relation to customer demand. Similarly, non smoking staff would find employment in non smoking restaurants.

In reality, this never happened, with smoking restaurants being the norm and non smoking restaurants being the rare exception. I'm not really sure why market forces failed so miserably in this case, but guess it has to do with the dynamics of partitioning. Chosing a restaurant is not like chosing a car or a computer because you don't chose it for yourself and stuff what the others think, but you try and find a compromise that suits everybody in your group. And of course restaurants tried tocater to that. If you try to cater to averages you get mediocrity.

Look to Zürich and the Fumoirs. The co-existence works. When the Lungenliga tried to topple the ZH solution via the Union, they completely failed. As the NON-smokers are in a clear majority, the compromise done does in general really show the way
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Old 29.01.2015, 08:02
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Re: Smokers in Germany

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Progress is anything a "progressive" wants it to be.


Today it's banning smoking. Tomorrow, it might be compulsory sterilisation, euthanasia, whatever.


If our intellectual betters approve, then it's progress. If they don't, then it's reactionary ignorance.


It's all for our own good, naturally.

only if you get something through a public vote, which you will NOT. The recipe is based on the checks & balances of Thomas Jefferson
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Old 29.01.2015, 13:09
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Re: Smokers in Germany

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Using just this as an example - they don't cause cancer. Cigarettes do.

Can you see the difference?

Unless you're one of those new-age weirdos. Are you?
I think you missed my point. It seems narrow-mindedness has an impact on one's ability to reason.
But that's ok, I guess. I'll continue living my life accepting people around me who have different opinions and ways of living, without getting upset.
You will continue living your life thinking you know better and people should change to be more like you.

I'll live a happy life, and will learn from others every single day until I die (possibly of a lung cancer due to passive smoking from the day someone in Zurich HB lit a cigarette as he got off the train), and you will live within the walls you create to isolate you from the rest of the people.
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Old 29.01.2015, 13:35
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Re: Smokers in Germany

Clearly an undocumented side affect of smoking is a tendency towards extreme melodrama...


Not wanting to be around smokers isn't creating a "wall to isolate you from the rest of the people", it's about not wanting to be around smoke, which is noxious. It doesn't happen often, but I assure you, if someone were to sit next to me on a bench and start spraypainting or mixing epoxy, I'd be just as annoyed.


First banning smoking while driving, next, forced euthanasia. Slippery slope arguments are the best arguments! We all see how gay marriage in the US led to the inevitable and prophesied dog/horse/car/transsexual midget matrimony, and how sensible gun laws do nothing more than render an American public helpless and defenseless in the face of British aggression.


In this day and age, basically everyone accepts that driving while SMSing , using a phone, applying makeup, or reading a map is needlessly dangerous and as such, banned. How dumb do you have to be to think holding a burning stick in your mouth doesn't qualify as a dangerous distraction as well?
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Old 29.01.2015, 14:19
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Re: Smokers in Germany

Bending towards libertarian beliefs, I think everyone is free to make choices (good and bad) and smoke to their hearts content.

Where the beliefs cross is when I see children smoking, and realize that although it's their parents job to raise them and look after them properly, society has to come in to help out as a good deal of parents are pretty useless when it comes to instilling healthy habits (both physical and social). These children can't be expected to reason on their own.

Then comes the whole 'public healthcare' side of the argument. When a government (Canada for most of my examples), spends almost half of their budget on health care, it is in the tax payer's interest have a say in the costly treatments associated with smoking (The tax on cigarettes is also a factor as well).
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Old 29.01.2015, 14:20
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Re: Smokers in Germany

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clearly an undocumented side affect of non-smoking is a tendency towards extreme melodrama...


not wanting to be around smokers isn't creating a "wall to isolate you from the rest of the people", it's about not wanting to be around smoke, which is noxious. It doesn't happen often, but i assure you, if someone were to sit next to me on a bench and start spraypainting or mixing epoxy, i'd be just as annoyed.


First banning smoking while driving, next, forced euthanasia. Slippery slope arguments are the best arguments! We all see how gay marriage in the us led to the inevitable and prophesied dog/horse/car/transsexual midget matrimony, and how sensible gun laws do nothing more than render an american public helpless and defenseless in the face of british aggression.


In this day and age, basically everyone accepts that driving while smsing , using a phone, applying makeup, or reading a map is needlessly dangerous and as such, banned. How dumb do you have to be to think holding a burning stick in your mouth doesn't qualify as a dangerous distraction as well?
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Old 29.01.2015, 15:16
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Re: Smokers in Germany

I'm very much pro live and let live and all that, but what it bothers me is that, for instance, when I wait for a bus there it comes someone who takes a seat on the bench and then lights a cigarette, even though there are at least 10 people around who are NOT smoking. I'm not afraid some catastrophe will happen, it's the carelessness.
A basic courtesy rule would say you'd move 3-4 metres away, no-one is asking you not to smoke. Even when you're with a friend you ask if it's OK to smoke, if it bothers him/her (at least in my book)
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Old 29.01.2015, 15:35
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Re: Smokers in Germany

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Bending towards libertarian beliefs, I think everyone is free to make choices (good and bad) and smoke to their hearts content.

Where the beliefs cross is when I see children smoking, and realize that although it's their parents job to raise them and look after them properly, society has to come in to help out as a good deal of parents are pretty useless when it comes to instilling healthy habits (both physical and social). These children can't be expected to reason on their own.

Then comes the whole 'public healthcare' side of the argument. When a government (Canada for most of my examples), spends almost half of their budget on health care, it is in the tax payer's interest have a say in the costly treatments associated with smoking (The tax on cigarettes is also a factor as well).
Additional to the libertarian view, everyone is free to smoke as long as it doesn't adversely affect others (and I would also extend this arguement to most non-addictive - or at least no more addictive than tobacco - drugs). I treasure my freedom to breath in smoke free air.

The financial arguement often doesn't wash however. Although they cost a lot in health care, the combination of tobacco tax income and the money they save the rest of us in unclaimed pensions through them dying early comfortably pays for it in most western countries.
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