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  #41  
Old 22.01.2015, 18:32
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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Exclusion from society is one of the key factors that leads to radicalization in the first place.
But there must be another key as well. Plenty of people feel excluded from societies. Only a very small subset end up beheading people, taking sex slaves, and committing terrorism.

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Answer the questions i put above:
'Why is it that this war against terror, with our current tactics, seems to be getting worse and worse, instead of better and better, with every terrorist killed?'
Because a war on terror is an incoherent concept. The war is between different people, with different beliefs, some of whom use terrorism as a tactic. If one side can't even identify who they are at war with they're unlikely to make progress.

If it was World War 2, and we occasionally bombed a few Nazis convoys here and there, trying our utmost to limit collateral damage, it probably would've made things worse not better as well. But we identified the enemy, committed to the war, firebombed/nuked cities killing countless civilians without apology, and we won. Nazi-ism and State Shinto were discredited and the Germans and Japanese became our friends.

But we're not prepared to do that now.

We can't say who we're at war with, because that would open the door to accusations we don't want to face. The whole idea that others have no agency of their own and only react to how we treat them is racist though, as are lowered expectations for different groups. Maybe we should consider that terrorism has its roots in something other than western culture, or how the west treats others (or how the Thais, Russians, Indians, Nigerians etc treat this other). To get an idea of what the root cause might be, maybe we should listen to what the terrorists tell us every single time.

We're still arrogantly trying to win hearts and minds when minds are made up. Not everyone wants to be or live like us. They know our culture, and reject it in favour of their own.

BTW, the shootout in Verviers the other day was between police and returnees from Syria. The idea that those who come back to Europe reject what they fought for in Syria and want to integrate is dangerously naive.
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  #42  
Old 22.01.2015, 18:35
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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Thanks, in the specific case quoted in that article, was he a murderer? I can't understand the language of the newspaper
Good question!
The organizer of what wonderful idea should deploy their good administrative skills and create a form with multiple answers (also to make sure they don't discriminate or exclude the one with difficulties):

Have you killed someone while in Syria:
a) No
b) I am not sure
c) Gruuunnt
d) Only animals
e) Yes*
*If yes please indicate how many:

If you have responded to previous answer with a "Yes", answer the following question, if not go to the end of the form.

Do you regret having killed someone in Syria?
a) No
b) I am not sure
c) Gruuunnt
d) Yes

PS: I hope it's diplomatically correct, I would not want to offend any reading idiot.
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  #43  
Old 22.01.2015, 18:43
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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And making martyrs of them, so they can inspire a new generation, is of course, not a stupid idea?
[/B]
Hold on.
I don't want to go on debating about definitions, but I think this one is necessary to have a common understanding:

Martyr: "is somebody who suffers persecution and/or death for advocating, renouncing, refusing to renounce, and/or refusing to advocate a belief or cause of either a religious or secular nature."

How do you see that putting some Muslim terrorists to jail is making them martyrs? Or to be accurate to my comment, how do you see that "kicking badly" Muslim terrorists would make them martyrs?

I'd rather take the definition which was given earlier (Muslim terrorists=criminals). Can you call a criminal a martyr?
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  #44  
Old 22.01.2015, 18:48
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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Good question!
The organizer of what wonderful idea should deploy their good administrative skills and create a form with multiple answers (also to make sure they don't discriminate or exclude the one with difficulties):

Have you killed someone while in Syria:
a) No
b) I am not sure
c) Gruuunnt
d) Only animals
e) Yes*
*If yes please indicate how many:

If you have responded to previous answer with a "Yes", answer the following question, if not go to the end of the form.

Do you regret having killed someone in Syria?
a) No
b) I am not sure
c) Gruuunnt
d) Yes

PS: I hope it's diplomatically correct, I would not want to offend any reading idiot.
Let's say you get an answer a to the first question. Do you think that person should be rehabilitated if they agree to go through the process?
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  #45  
Old 22.01.2015, 18:56
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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Let's say you get an answer a to the first question. Do you think that person should be rehabilitated if they agree to go through the process?
Let me rephrase:
Do you think the administration should believe what was said by a "Muslim terrorist" who actually "crossed the line", organized to go to war in a foreign country?
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  #46  
Old 22.01.2015, 18:59
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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Let's say you get an answer a to the first question. Do you think that person should be rehabilitated if they agree to go through the process?
I would go as far as ask, "What have you got to trade for a state job instead of a sentence?". It would have to be worthwhile, that assists in preventing similar crimes. Like, get a full debrief on the whole experience, every individual and the whole terrorist organization.



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But there must be another key as well. Plenty of people feel excluded from societies. Only a very small subset end up beheading people, taking sex slaves, and committing terrorism.
Hmmm, what can that be?

Furthermore, if someone is feeling victimized, you don't pander and encourage their victimization by agreeing with it, and thereby reinforcing it. That would bring humanity down to the lowest common denominator. What you do is try to strengthen the person in their victimization to overcome it by positive thinking and actions. You try to encourage and empower them to get out of that mentality, and into the light. Society is society, and is larger than an individual. You can't blame society for self-inflicted victimizations.
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  #47  
Old 22.01.2015, 19:01
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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Let me rephrase:
Do you think the administration should believe what was said by a "Muslim terrorist" who actually "crossed the line", organized to go to war in a foreign country?
Thanks, I got your point the first time. Lets say either way you could prove that that person wasn't a murderer. Do you think he shouldnt be rehabilitated if he was sorry and showed a willingness to do so?
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  #48  
Old 22.01.2015, 19:04
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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Murder means life in jail in my book (if they can't be executed)
even for him?

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  #49  
Old 22.01.2015, 19:16
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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do you believe in the rehabilitation of criminals?
I am going to say something that many of you won't like, but, just like everyone else, I have my opinion.

I don't believe that all crimes are created equal. I also don't think that these are "common criminals". Rehabilitation is possible and, in some cases, it works - even for a murderer.

For someone who systematically, repeatedly, and consciously killed, raped, mutilated innocent people over and over again (be it ISIS, or pedophiles, or people who for years mistreat the elderly who cannot defend themselves, etc.) - I don't see any rehabilitation possible.

These are trash, and just like trash, should be disposed of.
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  #50  
Old 22.01.2015, 19:41
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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I am going to say something that many of you won't like, but, just like everyone else, I have my opinion.

I don't believe that all crimes are created equal. I also don't think that these are "common criminals". Rehabilitation is possible and, in some cases, it works - even for a murderer.

For someone who systematically, repeatedly, and consciously killed, raped, mutilated innocent people over and over again (be it ISIS, or pedophiles, or people who for years mistreat the elderly who cannot defend themselves, etc.) - I don't see any rehabilitation possible.

These are trash, and just like trash, should be disposed of.
By what science do you believe that rehabilitation doesn't work for disaffected youth who've seen one too many youtube videos and boarded a plane for Damascus versus a man who stabs his wife in the side of the head for looking too long at the barman?
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  #51  
Old 22.01.2015, 19:52
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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Hold on.
I don't want to go on debating about definitions, but I think this one is necessary to have a common understanding:

Martyr: "is somebody who suffers persecution and/or death for advocating, renouncing, refusing to renounce, and/or refusing to advocate a belief or cause of either a religious or secular nature."

How do you see that putting some Muslim terrorists to jail is making them martyrs? Or to be accurate to my comment, how do you see that "kicking badly" Muslim terrorists would make them martyrs?

I'd rather take the definition which was given earlier (Muslim terrorists=criminals). Can you call a criminal a martyr?
Because people who believe as they do will see them being jailed/executed for "advocating a belief" as martyrs as per your definition. This is after all, how Christians were treated by the Romans, etc, and we got plenty of martyrs (read saints) from it.

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even for him?

Yes. He knows what a gun is and what it does so no excuse of "oh, he's just a child". He's probably much more "grown up" than most Western children of his age. Unfortunately, it's all too easy to get hold of weapons.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-30880636
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  #52  
Old 22.01.2015, 19:54
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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By what science do you believe that rehabilitation doesn't work for disaffected youth who've seen one too many youtube videos and boarded a plane for Damascus versus a man who stabs his wife in the side of the head for looking too long at the barman?
Let me clarify my statement: when I say "I don't see any rehabilitation possible", I mean "I don't think that the option of rehab should even be offered to them". Of course it could work, but what entitles them to even have the option?

Nice try with the guy murdering his wife, these two examples are not even close, not even remotely. Back to "not all crimes are created equal" and "someone who systematically, repeatedly, and consciously killed, raped, mutilated innocent people over and over again".

Also - disaffected youth my a$$. What about personal responsibility for your actions? Not that the following matters to the discussion, but I hear this too often. I wish I had the time to be disaffected back in the day, but alas, I was busy studying and working 3 jobs with the hope of defying all stereotypes and make something out of a small-village girl born in a blue-collar family. Maybe I should have said "scr** all this, I'll be an irresponsible idiot instead and then someone will bail me out at the end."

If we don't learn that actions have consequences, and we are personally responsible for our actions, what kind of message are we sending out???
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  #53  
Old 22.01.2015, 20:03
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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Yes. He knows what a gun is and what it does so no excuse of "oh, he's just a child".
So you think a 5 year old who's mother has been raped in front of him by his older brother at gunpoint and then told worse will happen unless he does what he's told is responsible? You're much more of a write-off than he'll ever be.

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Let me clarify my statement: when I say "I don't see any rehabilitation possible", I mean "I don't think that the option of rehab should even be offered to them". Of course it could work, but what entitles them to even have the option?
Rehab isn't for them, it's for us.
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  #54  
Old 22.01.2015, 20:08
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

Perhaps they should train them to be undercover operatives, as apparently the Canadians sometimes do:

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Old 22.01.2015, 20:23
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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Didn't see this coming.

Apparently some town in Sweden is offering an employment in the commune of the city and a free shrink to every Swedish Jihadist in Syria so they can come back home and start socializing and stop feel alienated.

http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/komm...-is-krigare-1/

This does sound like Monty Python.

Thanks for the link . This is a major issue in most Western European countries (and I'm not saying I agree with you )... I believe the town council is doing the right thing!

Forwarded it to my Swedish grandma and she also thinks that offering innovative rehab programs to Daesh rebels returning home is the right way to go!

Besides being pragmatic, Swedes are also extremely kind, helpful and compassionate people including to those who have done some crazy things.
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Old 22.01.2015, 21:00
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

I don't know if this helps clarify or not, but I found something in English:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1fd_1421747826

Sounds like it's not written in stone yet, and that it's limited to one municipality (so far).

Last edited by 3Wishes; 22.01.2015 at 21:01. Reason: bad link
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  #57  
Old 22.01.2015, 21:39
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

From Wall Street Journal:
"We have to acknowledge that today’s Islamists are driven by a political ideology, an ideology embedded in the foundational texts of Islam. We can no longer pretend that it is possible to divorce actions from the ideals that inspire them."
"There are numerous calls to violent jihad in the Quran."

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...14&h=sAQHDG8rf
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Old 22.01.2015, 21:39
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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i am going to say something that many of you won't like, but, just like everyone else, i have my opinion.

I don't believe that all crimes are created equal. I also don't think that these are "common criminals". Rehabilitation is possible and, in some cases, it works - even for a murderer.

For someone who systematically, repeatedly, and consciously killed, raped, mutilated innocent people over and over again (be it isis, or pedophiles, or people who for years mistreat the elderly who cannot defend themselves, etc.) - i don't see any rehabilitation possible.

These are trash, and just like trash, should be disposed of.
+ 1.

Don't know what "should be disposed of" means, and have not a clear opinion about what's to be done with them, but giving them this kind of jobs and a blank cheque does seem unfair to everyone - the work colleagues who'll have to deal with them on a daily basis, the surviving victims (wherever they are), the justice system who'll establish double standards, everyone...

Last edited by greenmount; 22.01.2015 at 22:06.
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Old 22.01.2015, 22:26
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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State jobs? Like policemen? They are armed in Sweden?
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No, they aren't.

Tom


Police in Sweden have been armed for 50 years!
The Swedish police have been armed since 1965.

Quote "In 1965 there was a major reform of the Swedish police force, where the state took over the total responsibility for the police function. As part of the reform, the police changed to a regularly armed police force. The police were equipped with Walther PP (Polizei Pistol) 7.65 mm as service weapon."
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Old 22.01.2015, 22:48
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

Kindness, gentleness and humanitarian sentiments are great when you can afford it. But these have to be evaluated against risks, and are secondary. It would be criminally irresponsible to expose ordinary citizens to risks for the sake of someone's heart tug. And imagine sending a message that it is alright to go out and do this, because you can just come back to a government job. That is insanity.
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