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  #121  
Old 23.01.2015, 14:18
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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Criminal Justice Systems are designed for control, mitigation and deterrence of crime in civilized societies , within a domestic context. I'm not so sure International Terrorism completely fits into this context. International Terrorism are also national security issues, which may supercede local purposes. processes and objectives. We may not actually have appropriate systems to deal with these, hence we saw Guantanamo.

I'm not so sure international terrorism fits civilian criminal justice. But if this is the new norm, perhaps a more appropriate justice system needs to be conceptualized.
Yeah, as if we're going to see an European Guantanamo any time soon. (such a straw man argument)
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  #122  
Old 23.01.2015, 14:21
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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Criminal Justice Systems are designed for control, mitigation and deterrence of crime in civilized societies , within a domestic context. I'm not so sure International Terrorism completely fits into this context. International Terrorism are also national security issues, which may supercede local purposes. processes and objectives. We may not actually have appropriate systems to deal with these, hence we saw Guantanamo.

I'm not so sure international terrorism fits civilian criminal justice. But if this is the new norm, perhaps a more appropriate justice system needs to be conceptualized.
Guantanamo was the outcome of not following the processes already in place, and then trying to save face.

Terrorism is either a war crime or a crime. For either, there are either military courts, or criminal courts. The problem with Gitmo was that there are people languishing there for upto a decade now, imprisoned due to guilt by association, who never received a trial of any kind whatsoever. Many were radicalised as a result, and now nobody knows what to do with them, other than hope some country or another eventually accepts them.

For those returning from Syria, assuming guilt by association would only sow the seeds for bigger problems down the road. If there is intelligence available about a person, they must be arrested and tried, and then set free if found not guilty. If the authorities are suspicious but have no evidence, nothing prevents governments from keeping returnees under surveillance, resources and warrants permitting.
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  #123  
Old 23.01.2015, 14:41
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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Yeah, as if we're going to see an European Guantanamo any time soon. (such a straw man argument)
It wasn't an argument for Guantanamo. But the lack of such a system is what was used for justifying Guantanamo.


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Guantanamo was the outcome of not following the processes already in place, and then trying to save face.

Terrorism is either a war crime or a crime. For either, there are either military courts, or criminal courts. The problem with Gitmo was that there are people languishing there for upto a decade now, imprisoned due to guilt by association, who never received a trial of any kind whatsoever. Many were radicalised as a result, and now nobody knows what to do with them, other than hope some country or another eventually accepts them.

For those returning from Syria, assuming guilt by association would only sow the seeds for bigger problems down the road. If there is intelligence available about a person, they must be arrested and tried, and then set free if found not guilty. If the authorities are suspicious but have no evidence, nothing prevents governments from keeping returnees under surveillance, resources and warrants permitting.
It was not for failure to follow process, but a lack of process for what the Bush regime purported to be extraordinary circumstances. It was sold as merely an interrogation center, prior to processing for War Crimes . But the detainees were held indefinitely without charge, which is where the process or lack of broke down. But I suppose there are varying degrees of opinions on this as in everything else.

I think there needs to be an international court system set up for these situations, with clearly defined due process and some credibility with the Muslim world for prosecuting terrorists. Unfortunately, a large portion of the Muslim world do not recognize the credibility of existing international organizations. But then, these same probably do not recognize the legitimacy of their own governments either, let alone International laws.

I don't think a small Swedish village community is equipped to weigh this out on behalf of the rest of the world.
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  #124  
Old 23.01.2015, 14:48
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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It wasn't an argument for Guantanamo. But the lack of such a system is what was used for justifying Guantanamo.
.
Sorry, I was referring to Kosti's post who brought into discussion Guantanamo, as an answer to common sense questions. (didn't see the need to even consider this non-sense)

I agree with the lack of a proper system.
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  #125  
Old 23.01.2015, 14:52
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

No need of European Guatanamo, any one of them who has committed a crime against humanity: homicide, torture, rape, beheading etc. should be sentenced to min. of 25 years; 40-year sentence for repeat offenders!

You don't need to be Einstein to realize that we are dealing with very dangerous people; even Nil can understand this.

Only those not convicted of serious crimes may be deemed for rehabilitation.
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  #126  
Old 23.01.2015, 15:03
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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No need of European Guatanamo, any one of them who has committed a crime against humanity: homicide, torture, rape, beheading etc. should be sentenced to min. of 25 years; 40-year sentence for repeat offenders!
Unfortunately you are not going to get much verifiable evidence out of a war zone unless the place is crawling with investigators, and then you'll probably discover that war crimes are being committed by all sides including those sponsored by us and the GCC states (e.g. Kurds, Syrian rebel forces etc..).

Everyone seems to have this image of Jihad John coming back, in reality its more likely to be a shell shocked kid who wanted some cool pics for his Facebook page.
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  #127  
Old 23.01.2015, 15:04
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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You don't need to be Einstein to realize that we are dealing with very dangerous people; even Nil can understand this.
I lol'd.
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  #128  
Old 23.01.2015, 15:41
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

Agree 100%

Most people behind this mess have actually never been to Syria!


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Unfortunately you are not going to get much verifiable evidence out of a war zone unless the place is crawling with investigators, and then you'll probably discover that war crimes are being committed by all sides including those sponsored by us and the GCC states (e.g. Kurds, Syrian rebel forces etc..).

Everyone seems to have this image of Jihad John coming back, in reality its more likely to be a shell shocked kid who wanted some cool pics for his Facebook page.
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  #129  
Old 23.01.2015, 15:49
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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and then you'll probably discover that war crimes are being committed by all sides including those sponsored by us and the GCC states (e.g. Kurds, Syrian rebel forces etc..).
I don't see that as a reason to turn a blind eye. If we really want to take the moral high ground we must also lean on our allies so they understand two wrongs don't make a right.

War crime tribunals become a farce if they give one side a softer treatment.
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  #130  
Old 23.01.2015, 15:50
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

Right. Defining International terrorism laws are still in process, and under negotiations. They are stuck on defining what terrorism is.

But things like participating in, or providing material support to Terrorism are in place, and this is probably the extent to what they can charge with unless they have more evidence or compound to the laws.
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  #131  
Old 23.01.2015, 16:15
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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But things like participating in, or providing material support to Terrorism are in place, and this is probably the extent to what they can charge with unless they have more evidence or compound to the laws.
Just as well none of the governments deciding what these international standards of terrorism are, have ever provided any support to terrorist organisations themselves.

What do you mean where did they get the weapons from?!
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  #132  
Old 23.01.2015, 16:51
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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Just as well none of the governments deciding what these international standards of terrorism are, have ever provided any support to terrorist organisations themselves.

What do you mean where did they get the weapons from?!

I wouldn't mind seeing a solid case put forth, and Magna Carta invoked. Because without it, these are relegated to the realm of rumours, gossip, inuendos and conspiracy theories. I do agree that many governments need a thorough cleansing, and hope it would happen sooner rather than later.
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  #133  
Old 23.01.2015, 17:14
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

Complete BONKERS! West has really lost the plot, interesting and depressing times ahead.

For the apologists, how about hosting these people in your own home so you can provide direct love and care?
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  #134  
Old 23.01.2015, 17:19
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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Complete BONKERS! West has really lost the plot, interesting and depressing times ahead.

For the apologists, how about hosting these people in your own home so you can provide direct love and care?
I say we do a pilot project, we adopt 4 muslim terrorists and we give 2 to Castro and 2 to Mirfield, they will need to host them in their own homes and help them socialize and feel part of the community. They can share the experience with us afterwards
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  #135  
Old 23.01.2015, 17:22
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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Complete BONKERS! West has really lost the plot, interesting and depressing times ahead.

For the apologists, how about hosting these people in your own home so you can provide direct love and care?
We're talking about Sweden and Denmark, two EU countries that are not exactly top of the list when it comes to blowback from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan.
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  #136  
Old 23.01.2015, 17:24
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

Castro, would you prefer a Swiss Jihadist or you will be happy with a Swedish one?
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Old 23.01.2015, 17:30
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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I say we do a pilot project, we adopt 4 muslim terrorists
I think this was tried some years ago. It turned out they were really good at take offs in the Boeing 767, but their landing skills left a lot to be desired ....

Last edited by Assassin; 23.01.2015 at 17:48.
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  #138  
Old 23.01.2015, 22:05
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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We're talking about Sweden and Denmark, two EU countries that are not exactly top of the list when it comes to blowback from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan.
Ahmed from Sweden just called and cancelled, he is not really interested in rehabilitation, all he said was " that government job I need to get my virgins"

Ruedi on the other hand would love to come back in Switzerland and he would love to come and live with you but there will be some non-negotiable ground rules set first...
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  #139  
Old 04.02.2015, 13:34
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

Well, the nutters have certainly come out of the woodwork in this thread, haven't they!

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But is the Islamic State a "cause"?
For those following it and brainwashed by it, absolutely.

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OK, cool.

The people born and bred in CH who joined ISIS to fight in Syria should be deported to the Syrian government for the involvement of terrorist activities on Syrian soil.

We can be nice and let them keep the red book, no problem.

But something tells me that they won't be getting government jobs in Syria...
You're nonsensical. You wax lyrical about how these are evil men, and then suggest we send them where they will be tortured and killed, and we would be party to that. You're no better then the Jihadis.


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do you think that the Swiss authorities will deport a Swiss National with a Heimat Ort of Chur to Assad's Authorities in Syria because he is a Jihadist?
Not a hope in hell.

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I really hope they will in the near future

So basically, I go and kill bunch of people in the center of Geneva after being in training in Syria for few months. Now, what will I get? Free food, roof over my head, healthcare etc for life. While you are dead just because you walked on street going home to your family?

Doesn't sound that bad actually. I am sure lots of people will find this life style better than waking up every day and going to a shitty job. that, I'm gonna kill somebody and get a FREE LIFE.

Cut the BS and open your eyes. When shit hits the fun in CH because of these brainwashed wits I am sure you will feel different. Must be comfortable sitting in that chair in a warm office saying "we all should get alnong"

Perhaps YOU should go to Syria and try to rehabilitate them, I see you believe in it?
Idiotic post #2.

For the umpteenth time, no one is suggesting they go free. They would, of course, be monitored to within an inch of their lives, and every single aspect of their life would be controlled. They would likely spend years in prison before being allowed on the streets. And prison would not be, as you seem to imply' a matter of fun. You take your freedom for granted if you consider the loss of it to be such a trivial matter.

Cut the Fox News out of your life and try to comprehend the possibility that violence alone does not solve a problem like this, it just makes it last longer. We've been fighting this war for 15 years, and we are less free, less safe, and less secure now then when we began, and our enemies seem to be multiplying. I cannot point out any clearer that our strategy needs to change, and needs to be more holistic then the Republican sponsored 'shoot them all, ask questions later'.

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A terrorist is nothing more than a criminal? Criminals in our societies generally (of course with statistically rare exceptions) do not commit extreme atrocities in complete disregard of their own lives... they commit crimes according to the goal they are trying to reach and punishment they are willing to receive, and generally only then with the expectation they are going to live to commit crime another day. Criminals don't commit crime for some religious ideals that they have committed their lives and very being to, and that they are willing to die for.

Calling a terrorist "nothing more than a criminal" is a gross, gross understatement if ever I read one. They are in another league, and the moment they join a terrorist group with the aim of killing innocent people (otherwise known as "enemies of Islam") then they deserve treating with the harshest penalties.

Of course I do feel some sympathy for some impressionable teenager that gets recruited and runs off to fight, but that sympathy stops the moment they make the conscious choice of pulling a trigger.
How can you prove, beyond any and all reasonable doubt, that they did kill?


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Yes, but how do you know that these (young) people who're playing jihadis now didn't actually commit any crimes in Syria or elsewhere (willingly or not), or don't come back with the plans to commit others? I'm genuinely interested in this answer. They can't prove their innocence, or do they?

On another note, this scenario that they did commit something is not so far fetched.
But the flip side to that coin is that you cannot easily prove that they did do something, thanks to the mess the whole region is in and the lack of reliable information.

Do you punish them for crimes they had the potential to commit, but you have no actual proof of?

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Agreed... to call them criminals just doesn't cut it... they need to be subject to a different judicial process to what we deem any normal criminal.

It just doesn't make any logical sense to lump in the same category, when they are ultimately so different in their goals, ideals, and what they are willing to do to further them. It's not about glorifying them, it's about treating them as the supremely high threat that they are, people who are willing to kill you and your family in your local coffee shop just to prove an ideal with no material gain.

I would go as far as to say they are a threat to our very civilization (at least in principle) , and am pretty much just waiting for (or at least I would not be surprised if it happened) the day when on of the masterminds behind the major extremist groups somehow manage, no matter after how many years of trying and failing, to get their hands on a nuclear-grade explosive and set it off in a Western metropolis. I think if they had the capability to do so, then it would not be beyond them.
I wouldn't go that far. Civilization, and its principle, is much stronger, and will always be stronger then the likes of IS to seriously be able to challenge. A threat to our safety, sure. Criminals that warrant further control and retention that most criminals, absolutely.

Its more likely that a rogue government will get its hands on nukes and we will face that threat then the likes of IS ever getting one. To do so, and detonate it, would kick off world war three, and it would basically be everyone v IS, and IS have no hope in hell then. They know that, and so do we.

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Unfortunately you are not going to get much verifiable evidence out of a war zone unless the place is crawling with investigators, and then you'll probably discover that war crimes are being committed by all sides including those sponsored by us and the GCC states (e.g. Kurds, Syrian rebel forces etc..).

Everyone seems to have this image of Jihad John coming back, in reality its more likely to be a shell shocked kid who wanted some cool pics for his Facebook page.
Absolutely. I expect its one reason why they aren't being investigated; to investigate them would implicate our allies, and then we say goodbye to all our friends in the region.

People also seem to forget that the likes of the stereotypical jihadi john with an AK in each pocket and an RPG across his back wont want to come back. The ones that want to return are those who are willing to accept lifelong imprisonment to get out of there.
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  #140  
Old 04.02.2015, 13:44
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Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS

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I say we do a pilot project, we adopt 4 muslim terrorists and we give 2 to Castro and 2 to Mirfield, they will need to host them in their own homes and help them socialize and feel part of the community. They can share the experience with us afterwards
Just give them EF accounts and teach them to use the search function.

Can they survive on 120K in a cave in Syria?
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