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Old 22.01.2015, 21:59
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London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

Yet another step towards a Police State, and the worse thing is that most people will probably cheer this 'common sense' measure

Quote:
Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention specifically forbids collective punishment.
Wikipedia
Punishment for all gang members if one carries out a violent crime



A hardline US-style crackdown, under which every gang member will face punishment if one of their ranks commits a violent offence, was announced today by Boris Johnson in a bid to improve public safety.

Under the “Shield” scheme, known members will be told that each will suffer a civil or criminal sanction if any of their gang carries out an assault, stabbing or other serious crime.
The penalties will range from recall to prison, gang injunctions banning them from parts of the capital or mixing with their associates, mandatory employment training courses or ejection from social housing.
The offender who triggers action will be fast-tracked through the criminal justice system for swift sentencing.
Announcing the scheme, the Mayor said: “It is time we gave these gang members a clear ultimatum — the police know who you are and if anyone in the gang steps out of line then every member will face consequences.
“There is absolutely no place for violence in our city. Through Shield, we are redoubling our efforts to stamp out gang crime once and for all.”
Stephen Greenhalgh, the deputy mayor for policing and crime, said: “The police have made huge progress in tackling gangs and youth crime is down, but a minority continue to cause significant harm. Evidence shows that this ‘one rule for all’ approach cuts violence.”
The tough purge on gang members is modelled on “Group Violence Intervention” methods used in several US cities, including Boston, Chicago and Los Angeles, and will be piloted in three boroughs: Lambeth, Westminster and Haringey, each of which is affected by significant gang violence.
Any gang member who wants to reform will be offered assistance to help them escape their lifestyle, including the provision of “safe houses”.
Commander Neil Basu, the head of the Met’s Gangs and Organised Crime Command, said: “We will do everything we can within the criminal and civil law to bring all members of any targeted gang to justice. Gang members in London will know that if they commit crime there are consequences. But we will also provide a meaningful alternative for those who want to turn their lives around and exit a gang.”
Gangs are responsible for 40 per cent of shootings and 17 per cent of violent crime in London and Scotland Yard data also shows that there are 186 recognised gangs with 3,600 members.
Under the £200,000 scheme, which will be piloted for 12 months and expanded if successful, police and community leaders will “call in” members to warn them of the new approach.

Source
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Old 22.01.2015, 22:16
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

Don't think that quite fits the collective punishment description Castro.

From your link:

"Collective punishment is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbours or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions."

Although I guess you can call these gang people "friends" of the accused they do have direct association with the gangs and control over their own actions.

What the article doesn't say is how successful, if at all, the American schemes have been.
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Old 23.01.2015, 11:29
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

California criminal code provides that members of street gangs can be charged with a felony if other members have committed a felony crime even thought they did not:

"Notwithstanding subdivisions (a) or (b) of Section 182, any person who actively participates in any criminal street gang, as defined in subdivision (f) of Section 186.22, with knowledge that its members engage in or have engaged in a pattern of criminal gang activity, as defined in subdivision (e) of Section 186.22, and who willfully promotes, furthers, assists, or benefits from any felonious criminal conduct by members of that gang is guilty of conspiracy to commit that felony and may be punished as specified in subdivision (a) of Section 182."

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/7/8/s182.5

This law has similarities to the Nazi "Sippenhaft" (family liability) law that was used to imprison the von Stauffenberg family after the failed assassination of Adolf Hitler, although they were not involved in the plot.
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Old 23.01.2015, 11:31
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

Don't think it'll last. Poor Boris has clearly stayed too long at the fair.
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Old 23.01.2015, 11:34
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

Innocent until someone else proven guilty.
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Old 23.01.2015, 11:36
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

Wait... do all American-British have to pay his back-taxes now?
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Old 23.01.2015, 11:46
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

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Don't think it'll last. Poor Boris has clearly stayed too long at the fair.
Great idea.
I love BJ. He gets my vote.

But ...
How do you "prove" that someone is a member of a group?
Lock em up and throw away the key!
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Old 23.01.2015, 12:05
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

If you are with an individual, or a group, that commits a serious crime, unless you report that crime you are also equally guilty.

It is a very old English law, nothing new there, it is called conspiracy.
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Old 23.01.2015, 12:27
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

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If you are with an individual, or a group, that commits a serious crime, unless you report that crime you are also equally guilty.

It is a very old English law, nothing new there, it is called conspiracy.
That goes for anyone who happens to know about a crime and fails to report it. However this law is far more dangerous, now you are guilty by association.

Now the first hurdle is that there is no codified definition of a gang that I am aware of. Unless we're talking about established ones like the Crips and Bloods with tattoos, initiation ceremonies, gang honour etc.. most gangs tend to be pretty loosely defined e.g. kids who hang around with each other from the same council estate committing petty crime and street robberies. How are you supposed to know which ones are core members, which are there as hangers on (or there because they're scared) etc..? This is the demographic Boris seeks to target, not the Russian Mafia or the Triads

It seems to be a typical hare-brained Tory scheme which will hopefully be shot down in flames once the first cases start going to court. I am not against prosecuting criminality and dealing with them harshly, but I am against politicians coming up with this sort of populist nonsense which has no hope of succeeding, and then blaming namby-pamby liberal PC for why they can't act like Nazis
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Old 23.01.2015, 12:34
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

Sounds like one mayor's implementation of the RICO (Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Organizations). I think the UK has been in need of it. I am all for any measure to prevent and prosecute violent crimes. Although this would be good to apply not only to street gangs, but more sophisticated criminal organizations as well.

I don't really mind violent criminals losing their civil liberties. Committing a violent crime ought to forfeit it.
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Old 23.01.2015, 12:38
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

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What the article doesn't say is how successful, if at all, the American schemes have been.
Similar laws have closed down many criminal organizations. It has even been applied to the Los Angeles Police Department and the Catholic Church.
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Old 23.01.2015, 12:52
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

Punishment includes "mandatory employment training courses "

Bastards.
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Old 23.01.2015, 12:56
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

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If you are with an individual, or a group, that commits a serious crime, unless you report that crime you are also equally guilty.

It is a very old English law, nothing new there, it is called conspiracy.
Then there'd be no news here. If I'm a well known member of a well known gang and one of the gang members has an argument in a petrol station and kills the shop worker on a whim, I'm now guilty. Even if I had no idea, no clue that anything even remotely like this was being planned or was likely to happen. I'm now liable for anything anyone does in that gang.

But that's not my main problem with the law. My issue with it is how to define a gang. A group of people basically. What about a fringe political party? Is UKIP a gang? The BNP? National Front? The Scouts? This is a law that's so wide-ranging it can be used against groups of people most people would rather not exist. And that's a huge problem for a free society.
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Old 23.01.2015, 13:18
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

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kids who hang around with each other from the same council estate committing petty crime and street robberies.
I'm sorry to break this to you, but things have changed snce Enid Blyton's day. Street urchins who steal sweets from the tobacconists don't have access to guns or fight their rivals to the death. They are not the gangs Boris is talking about. These gangs have a clear definition of who is in and who is out and there is a strict hierarchy.
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Old 23.01.2015, 13:21
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

Maybe another way to appease the Jewish community
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Old 23.01.2015, 13:27
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

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I'm sorry to break this to you, but things have changed snce Enid Blyton's day. Street urchins who steal sweets from the tobacconists don't have access to guns or fight their rivals to the death. They are not the gangs Boris is talking about. These gangs have a clear definition of who is in and who is out and there is a strict hierarchy.

Doesn't the article mention how gangs and their members will be contacted and notified of this measure? If so, is this a measure applicable only to recognized gang they have on file?
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Old 23.01.2015, 13:33
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

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Doesn't the article mention how gangs and their members will be contacted and notified of this measure? If so, is this a measure applicable only to recognized gang they have on file?
Dear Gang Member,

you are cordially invited to a meeting at St. Christopher's Church Hall at 2pm on Friday 30th January to discuss a new change to the law on gang affiliation. Light refreshments will be served.

RSVP

P.S No guns, hats or trainers allowed



LOL - good luck
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Old 23.01.2015, 13:36
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

Yea, that is no way for any decent police state to behave.
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Old 23.01.2015, 13:40
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

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Maybe another way to appease the Jewish community
Im sure, if given the choice, they'd rather be appeased by Islamists not killing them.
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Old 23.01.2015, 13:48
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Re: London mayor introduces collective punishment for gangs

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If I'm a well known member of a well known gang and one of the gang members has an argument in a petrol station and kills the shop worker on a whim, I'm now guilty. I'm now liable for anything anyone does in that gang.
Yes, you are guilty if you know about the crime, and do not report it, either before or after the act. The prosecution only have to prove you were present when it was discussed. In the past, people were hanged in the UK for conspiracy to murder.

The newspapers like to print stories that the gullible public like to read. Boris likes to be in the news, seen to be doing good. Everybody is happy this except the EF..

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2007/1529.html
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