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  #181  
Old 03.02.2015, 15:08
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Re: Greek elections

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Yes, this point is often misunderstood and people erroneously believe that the EU led to peace and therefore elimination of the EU will end peace. Wrong in both premise and logic.
On the other hand, UK can get out of EU any time they want, there's no need for EU to be eliminated in order to make this thing possible.

When is that referendum taking place?
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  #182  
Old 03.02.2015, 17:36
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Re: Greek elections

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On the other hand, UK can get out of EU any time they want, there's no need for EU to be eliminated in order to make this thing possible.

When is that referendum taking place?
AFAIK the various EU treaties contain no such provisions. So no, UK can't lawfully leave, nor is there any such right.

However, (war aside) a country can't be kept in against its will so a public vote saying to leave would probably followed by a lengthy series of talks and negotiations, and after many years they may be let out. But both time and details would be completely open, and it certainly would be a lengthy process.
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  #183  
Old 03.02.2015, 17:46
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Re: Greek elections

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You're missing all the best stuff.
....
In a nutshell: if it ain't Catholic (Roman or Reformed), it ain't European.


HTH

I dunno. I don't think the Greeks would vote to opt out of the EU, and would not align with Russia if they had a choice. The issue is the austerity plan, which is set on a long range undeliverable project. They need to break out this austerity plan into smaller implementable steps, within iterations in quarters. In the meantime, they can't let people freeze or starve to death. I'm confident there are smart enough people on both sides to recognize the need for agility.

Also, I prefer Giros to Kebabs.
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  #184  
Old 03.02.2015, 18:25
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Re: Greek elections

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AFAIK the various EU treaties contain no such provisions. So no, UK can't lawfully leave, nor is there any such right.

However, (war aside) a country can't be kept in against its will so a public vote saying to leave would probably followed by a lengthy series of talks and negotiations, and after many years they may be let out. But both time and details would be completely open, and it certainly would be a lengthy process.
Not good. I don't know who or what forced them into EU, but they should be given a chance to get out of it.
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  #185  
Old 03.02.2015, 21:44
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Re: Greek elections

Greece leaving the EU is not even on the table. The Troika is just a representative body for the EU. They will likely replace the Troika before breaking off Greece. This is just as much a Troika failure. Maybe the EU can offer to feed and directly manage selective growth programs with returns on their successes, and maybe assume some of its risks.
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  #186  
Old 03.02.2015, 22:35
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Re: Greek elections

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Greece leaving the EU is not even on the table. The Troika is just a representative body for the EU. They will likely replace the Troika before breaking off Greece. This is just as much a Troika failure. Maybe the EU can offer to feed and directly manage selective growth programs with returns on their successes, and maybe assume some of its risks.
Every government should figure out solutions to attract investments, create jobs, spend public money carefully...isn't a sign of weakness, as a state, to transfer all your obligations to another entity?
But I agree something must be done so maybe it's not a bad thing. All this idea with Greece leaving EU is a non-sense. I rather see UK leaving it, they're too special anyway. (and apparently this is much popular over there than in Greece ) Or maybe UK will decide to stop whining and playing the victim card and accept they are a state member of EU.... *yawn*
At least Greece is in a very difficult situation and it's understandable they'll try to get a better deal.

Last edited by greenmount; 03.02.2015 at 22:57.
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  #187  
Old 03.02.2015, 23:46
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Re: Greek elections

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Against whom could the expansionist Greece start a war?

If you think of Turkey:

--- Albania
--- Macedonia
--- Kosovo
--- Northern Cyprus
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  #188  
Old 03.02.2015, 23:54
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Re: Greek elections

The UK is just miffed they play an insignificant second-rate role, while they believe they won the war. If they were leading it, we would never hear the end of it.

If the EU is for real, they need to help out Greece. Otherwise, its just a scam. I think its run like a cult, and am glad Switzerland is not in it. Like I said before, the EU needs to transform from being a hindrance to its members for the sake of its own power, and become more of a benefit to its members by divesting its powers. If it ever becomes a positive force like that, would not be a bad idea to join.
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  #189  
Old 04.02.2015, 00:06
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Re: Greek elections

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Greece leaving the EU is not even on the table. The Troika is just a representative body for the EU. They will likely replace the Troika before breaking off Greece. This is just as much a Troika failure. Maybe the EU can offer to feed and directly manage selective growth programs with returns on their successes, and maybe assume some of its risks.
Seemed to work for other countries.

Why should Greece have a higher minimum wage than say Poland and employ a massive portion on the state wage paid directly by the taxpayers of other states ?
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  #190  
Old 04.02.2015, 00:15
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Re: Greek elections

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Seemed to work for other countries.

Why should Greece have a higher minimum wage than say Poland and employ a massive portion on the state wage paid directly by the taxpayers of other states ?
That's not a bad idea, if Greece should decide to lower their minimum wage. It's a bad idea if someone outside of Greece, who happens to be German, is forcing them to do so. I think its an issue of national sovereignty, and the right of an independent country to govern itself they way they see fit.
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  #191  
Old 04.02.2015, 00:20
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Re: Greek elections

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That's not a bad idea, if Greece should decide to lower their minimum wage. It's a bad idea if someone outside of Greece, who happens to be German, is forcing them to do so. I think its an issue of national sovereignty, and the right of an independent country to govern itself they way they see fit.
Sure it's an issue for national governments provided they can pay for such largesse. Greece cannot - and the actions of their new government are just pissing off the Poles , the Finns and other EU countries who run a tight ship.
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  #192  
Old 04.02.2015, 05:57
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Re: Greek elections

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The UK is just miffed they play an insignificant second-rate role, while they believe they won the war. If they were leading it, we would never hear the end of it.

If the EU is for real, they need to help out Greece. Otherwise, its just a scam. I think its run like a cult, and am glad Switzerland is not in it. Like I said before, the EU needs to transform from being a hindrance to its members for the sake of its own power, and become more of a benefit to its members by divesting its powers. If it ever becomes a positive force like that, would not be a bad idea to join.

That Britain should Play an active role in the EU is obvious. John Major had a lot of influence in the EU as he USED the clout of the UK. But then the "poodle of the president+ and his successors looked towards W-DC


Help out = help out of what ? Greece Needs to be helped out of Trouble. It should be possible to really get them out as Greece only has the size of Greater London and the economic stature of the Kanton Solothurn
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  #193  
Old 04.02.2015, 10:46
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Re: Greek elections

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--- Albania
--- Macedonia
--- Kosovo
--- Northern Cyprus
-- Alesia
-- Ypres
-- Stalingrad
-- The queue at Denner
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  #194  
Old 04.02.2015, 10:51
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Re: Greek elections

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Because the history of Europe after the fall of Rome is basically the history of the Roman Church and her daughters. Anything south and east of the Danube is "the other": first the sodomites and heretics of the Orthodox Church, later the wicked Turk. The borders were fluid, of course, with Latin possessions scattered all over the Eastern Med till the Turks cleaned up in the 16th and 17th centuries, but the three way cultural split goes back at least a millennium (I've even seen it argued that it goes back to classical times) and shows no sign of abating even now.


Even Lord Byron worked that one out, about a week before he dropped dead, bless his silken socks!

And even the late Baroness Thatcher, bless her handbag, reminded us that Europe lies on both sides of the Atlantic.
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  #195  
Old 04.02.2015, 19:37
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Re: Greek elections

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I think its an issue of national sovereignty, and the right of an independent country to govern itself they way they see fit.
The problem is that that is not how they see it! It appears that their idea is to shed their debt, revert to their old ways and then..... If there was real reform going on, then European politicians would be able to sell a debt write off their electors, but as it stands it simply will not fly in Spain and Portugal (probably less so in Ireland because the are gone beyond that point and are experiencing growth)
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  #196  
Old 04.02.2015, 20:28
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Re: Greek elections

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The problem is that that is not how they see it! It appears that their idea is to shed their debt, revert to their old ways and then..... If there was real reform going on, then European politicians would be able to sell a debt write off their electors, but as it stands it simply will not fly in Spain and Portugal (probably less so in Ireland because the are gone beyond that point and are experiencing growth)
Spain has had some autonomy in how they manage their debt. As they cut budgets, they have also cut taxes to stimulate growth. Budget cuts without growth will not meet any these debts. It only causes anemia in the economy.

They need to balance growth and budget cuts hand in hand. There does not seem to be a credible growth plan through the Greek austerity package. Theoretically, they can meet their debts with more growth and less taxes than budget cuts. But the EU Troika appears to only be interested in squeezing and punishing the Greeks.

The media portrays Syriza as extreme-left wing, as if they are tantamount to Fidel Castro nationalizing US assets. Because it makes the EU Troika look centrist in relation. All the while, the voters were just ordinary centrist citizens acknowledging the pain they are undergoing, and that this crash diet is causing more damage than good. The EU Troika could care less what kind of damage the austerity plan causes Greece.

I think the Greeks know and understand what they need to undergo. In any which case, it would be better for them to prescribe their own medicine than to have it forced on them externally. It could otherwise build dangerous resentment, and determining their own course of action places responsibility into their own hands.
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  #197  
Old 04.02.2015, 20:43
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Re: Greek elections

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the voters were just ordinary centrist citizens


There is no such thing as a "centrist" Greek.
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  #198  
Old 04.02.2015, 20:49
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Re: Greek elections

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There is no such thing as a "centrist" Greek.
There is always a center DB. It voted for Syriza.
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  #199  
Old 04.02.2015, 20:56
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Re: Greek elections

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There is always a center DB. It voted for Syriza.
Why do you constantly comment about things you know sweet bugger all about, Phos?

There is no centre in Greek politics. If you think US politics are polarised, you've seen nothing.

Like I said before: read a bit of Greek history. You might enjoy it. Shame the Greeks never had the opportunity, poor bastards.
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  #200  
Old 04.02.2015, 21:03
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Re: Greek elections

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Why do you constantly comment about things you know sweet bugger all about, Phos?

There is no centre in Greek politics. If you think US politics are polarised, you've seen nothing.

Like I said before: read a bit of Greek history. You might enjoy it. Shame the Greeks never had the opportunity, poor bastards.
Does it matter?

Everybody tries to position themselves close to the centre as in "left of centre" or "right of centre" or maybe even "left of extreme centre" or "right of extreme centre" (sometimes those words can get in the wrong order) but you know what I mean. After all, the centre is by definition a pillar of reasonableness if not reason and righteousness. Didn't one of the veteran French politicians, I think it was Giscard, even speak of being the pinnacle of the extreme centre whereas Le Pen's daddy had a poke at the dangerous extremists of the centre.

So ultimately, because we are all so reasonable (except the French guy with Parkinsons that is, and his daughter), we all consider ourselves close to the centre and define left and right as relative to us. The centre isn't absolute. The centre is us.
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