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  #201  
Old 04.02.2015, 21:09
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Re: Greek elections

Because this notion of Greece leaving the EU is nonsense. Potami, the party closest to the center of the specturm, was pro-EU, yet backed Syriza. Not everyone who voted for Syriza is anti-EU, as the media would portray. They were anti-austerity, not anti-EU.
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  #202  
Old 04.02.2015, 21:25
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Re: Greek elections

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In any which case, it would be better for them to prescribe their own medicine than to have it forced on them externally.
But they are not and that is the problem they've voted in a government who have as a policy to reinstate public servants, restore pensions, stop the sale of state assets and write off the debts. Now I'm not saying they are wrong, I'm saying that expecting European politicians to to sell it to their electorate is not realistic. Negotiation is a two way process and they are not offering anything at present...
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  #203  
Old 04.02.2015, 22:02
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Re: Greek elections

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But they are not and that is the problem they've voted in a government who have as a policy to reinstate public servants, restore pensions, stop the sale of state assets and write off the debts. Now I'm not saying they are wrong, I'm saying that expecting European politicians to to sell it to their electorate is not realistic. Negotiation is a two way process and they are not offering anything at present...
What do European politicians have to sell to their electorate? I'm not sure if they have a lot of choice other than cutting off Greece, which is an uphill and losing battle. Whereas Syriza will have to do a lot more selling to its own people, as some of its measures will be unpopular. So they also have to play the economics of political capital as they try to fix the economics of financial capital.

The theme of "Growth" is part of the Syriza platform. It seems part of their proposal is to repay some of their debts tied to the performance of government bonds linked to Greek economic recovery. In this way, the EU Troika has skin in Greece's recovery, and may even make it attractive to offer more.

I don't think they are resisting paying off their debts yet, unless the EU Troika plays hard ball and demands only one way of paying it off. In which case, they risk forfeiting getting paid at all. So while they are poised to play "Chicken", they will need to show all their cards on the table and talk it through. I assume that process is just beginning.
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  #204  
Old 05.02.2015, 21:29
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Re: Greek elections

For now ECB effectively threatens to kill Greek banks and trigger runs on them. That should be a lesson for any other country what joining euro currency really means.
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  #205  
Old 06.02.2015, 02:42
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Re: Greek elections

Yesterday was the first time I have known Demonstrations in Cities of Greece in support of their Government.

These are the 4 government members I have an interest in reading about

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras

Greek Deputy Prime Minister Giannis Dragasakis

Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis

Greek Defence Minister Panos Kammenos

Someone seems to have been quick off the mark with the ‘Syriza Man’ video game

I do not know what will happen, but hope a peaceful solution will be.
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  #206  
Old 06.02.2015, 02:54
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Re: Greek elections

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These are the 4 government members I have an interest in reading about

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras

Greek Deputy Prime Minister Giannis Dragasakis

Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis

Greek Defence Minister Panos Kammenos

Varoufakis is pretty cool. He goes to Downing Street dressed like he's going out clubbing. I'm looking forward to the hot summer months to see if they will be meeting their counterparts wearing beach slippers. I'm from SoCal, so can relate. It's a power statement.

I have a hunch that Greece will be a great place to incubate a start-up shortly.
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  #207  
Old 06.02.2015, 09:29
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Re: Greek elections

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For now ECB effectively threatens to kill Greek banks and trigger runs on them. That should be a lesson for any other country what joining euro currency really means.
Don't worry, before allowing anyone else to join the euro currency they'll make sure that a country is ready for that.
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  #208  
Old 06.02.2015, 10:20
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Re: Greek elections

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Varoufakis is pretty cool. He goes to Downing Street dressed like he's going out clubbing. I'm looking forward to the hot summer months to see if they will be meeting their counterparts wearing beach slippers. I'm from SoCal, so can relate. It's a power statement.

I have a hunch that Greece will be a great place to incubate a start-up shortly.
Don't hold your breath on the last one. In February/March 2011 I tried to start my own, in the 2 months of deliberations about legal structures and fine tunings, the tax code for companies changed about 2-3 times. There was an estimate somewhere for the noughties, saying that the tax code in Greece has significant changes once every two weeks.

Add on top of that: Chamber of Commerce (fees), the Athens Bar Association (more fees), the equivalent of IMechE if you're starting a technical company (yes, more fees), etc etc. You have to collect papers and permits and fee collection certificates from all of them, and THEN start your company.

Also from a legal standpoint, the judicial system is completely clogged up with insane backlogs, and even more bureaucracy. So whenever a dispute comes up, you're hanging for a loooong time.

You're welcome to go and try in that environment.

A "cool" dressed minister doesn't bring the spring (Greek expression about cuckoos).
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  #209  
Old 06.02.2015, 10:30
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Re: Greek elections

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Don't hold your breath on the last one. In
....
You're welcome to go and try in that environment.
....
A "cool" dressed minister doesn't bring the spring (Greek expression about cuckoos).

Those are good examples of the kinds of reform of corruption they need to clean up. If I was Syriza, I would be planning trips to Northern California soon.
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  #210  
Old 06.02.2015, 13:02
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Re: Greek elections

Zoe Constantopoulou has been elected Greek Parliament Speaker with record number of votes 235.
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  #211  
Old 06.02.2015, 14:24
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Re: Greek elections

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Those are good examples of the kinds of reform of corruption they need to clean up. If I was Syriza, I would be planning trips to Northern California soon.
These "institutions" remained steady during "liberal" reforms from "liberal" governments and with huge pressure from the troika et al.

Instead of real reforms that would have huge political cost, the previous governments from 2010 negotiated substitute measures that wouldn't hurt unions and established interests (because they own a lot of votes), and instead went after the private sector that is demonised in Greece as the root of all evil (because reasons). Basically instead of taking down bureaucracy and firing some 100k public servants, they went on and f-ed the economy by creating the conditions that allowed for the GDP to shrink and more than a million people to lose their jobs.

People were protesting for 10-20k jobs in the public TV/Radio (ERT), but nobody shed a tear for the 1.5 million unemployed people of the private sector.


So I reiterate:

Greece is under an occupation army, the highly political public sector. It's basically a soviet regime. And half of Syriza is the PASOK of 2010 that voted to go to memorandum. The only reason Syriza is saying whatever they're saying is because they are acting populistic. And for the same reason they will put even more pressure on the private sector and give back ludicrous benefits to the public one. And nothing will change.


If you're expecting a business friendly environment with a government that honestly believes that the "capital" and the "entrepreneur" is the root of all evil and the reason we're here (spoiler alert: it's not), you're expecting hell to freeze over...
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  #212  
Old 06.02.2015, 14:52
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Re: Greek elections

Well that is stupid. Since when has the Public Sector actually produced anything that constitutes growth? Now I can understand certain huge corporations that have large footprints and relatively little input. But for growth, they need to stimulate small business and get the people into the mentality of accomplishing something. They only have 11 million people. Small Business incentives can pull a huge sector of the population out of the red.

We'll see what they do, if they can get over the Troika hurdle in the coming weeks.
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  #213  
Old 06.02.2015, 14:57
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Re: Greek elections

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Well that is stupid. Since when has the Public Sector actually produced anything that constitutes growth? Now I can understand certain huge corporations that have large footprints and relatively little input. But for growth, they need to stimulate small business and get the people into the mentality of accomplishing something. They only have 11 million people. Small Business incentives can pull a huge sector of the population out of the red.

We'll see what they do, if they can get over the Troika hurdle in the coming weeks.
How can they do that when they need to increase the taxes, every single tax, in order to pay their debts? Sorry, it's a vicious circle. Plus, I'm not sure "EU" is too happy when a "marginal" country starts having success in an area that should be the monopoly of other states. It's like former Soviet Union, really, when Moscow decided which industry goes to whom.
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  #214  
Old 06.02.2015, 15:05
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Re: Greek elections

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How can they do that when they need to increase the taxes, every single tax, in order to pay their debts? Sorry, it's a vicious circle. Plus, I'm not sure "EU" is too happy when a "marginal" country starts having success in an area that should be the monopoly of other states. It's like former Soviet Union, really, when Moscow decided which industry goes to whom.
A government should be the servant of the people, not of foreign banks.

So if there is a conflict of interest between what's good for the country and what's good for foreign banks, on which side should they be?
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  #215  
Old 06.02.2015, 15:14
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Re: Greek elections

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A government should be the servant of the people, not of foreign banks.

So if there is a conflict of interest between what's good for the country and what's good for foreign banks, on which side should they be?
Yeah, that is an option for a limited number of countries within E.U.
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  #216  
Old 06.02.2015, 15:18
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Re: Greek elections

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How can they do that when they need to increase the taxes, every single tax, in order to pay their debts? Sorry, it's a vicious circle.
It's apparently not just taxes. They have bureaucratic hurdles. Small business, you don't have to babysit. You just let them go and produce. Tax cuts and exemptions would help too. Because there really is no way they will be able to feed all these people who aren't producing otherwise.
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Old 06.02.2015, 17:21
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Re: Greek elections

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So I reiterate:
Greece is under an occupation army, the highly political public sector. It's basically a soviet regime. And half of Syriza is the PASOK of 2010 that voted to go to memorandum. The only reason Syriza is saying whatever they're saying is because they are acting populistic. And for the same reason they will put even more pressure on the private sector and give back ludicrous benefits to the public one. And nothing will change.
Sounds a lot like Portugal ... and Ireland.... and Italy... and Spain... and France for that matter....

At the last general election in Ireland the Labour (socialist) party got enormous support from the public sector as they were so terrified at the prospect of the centre-right wing party forming a single-party government. Sadly they got what they wished for and no surprise the same unions in Ireland are now pushing for 5% increase in pay and the highest minimum wage in the entire EU.

I have absolutely zero symapthy for the Irish people (or others of other nationalities) who vote for such things.
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  #218  
Old 06.02.2015, 17:46
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Re: Greek elections

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I have absolutely zero symapthy for the Irish people (or others of other nationalities) who vote for such things.
Agreed on principle but keep in mind that depending on the elections-related legislation of each country, a single-party government could happen with as little as 35% of the votes. SYRIZA took 38% so there were basically two people that didn't want them for every one that did want them in power.

That's because in the 300-seat Greek parliament, you get a 50-seat bonus if you're the 1st party. That was because when the governments saw the people starting to diverge from the bi-partisan status of the 80s-90s and the smaller parties started gaining power, they needed boosts to get to be government even with 30% or 35% of the votes.


So yes, these are stupid votes, but you can't put it on the whole of the country. Again: 2/3 Greeks didn't want Syriza and about 55% was the total votes for parties that were pro-memorandum and pro-reforms.
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  #219  
Old 06.02.2015, 20:03
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Re: Greek elections

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Agreed on principle but keep in mind that depending on the elections-related legislation of each country, a single-party government could happen with as little as 35% of the votes. SYRIZA took 38% so there were basically two people that didn't want them for every one that did want them in power.

That's because in the 300-seat Greek parliament, you get a 50-seat bonus if you're the 1st party. That was because when the governments saw the people starting to diverge from the bi-partisan status of the 80s-90s and the smaller parties started gaining power, they needed boosts to get to be government even with 30% or 35% of the votes.


So yes, these are stupid votes, but you can't put it on the whole of the country. Again: 2/3 Greeks didn't want Syriza and about 55% was the total votes for parties that were pro-memorandum and pro-reforms.
Well when I look at the election results I see that an additional 6% voted for the Nazi party , 5% for the Greek communist party , 5% for the Independent Greeks who are frankly daft altogether and 5% for yet another Socialist party. That leaves a grand total of 33% for New Democracy and Potami - so let's say that 1 in 3 Greeks were not in favour of the Greek state reneging on its debts to the rest of the EU.
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  #220  
Old 06.02.2015, 21:47
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Re: Greek elections

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It's apparently not just taxes. They have bureaucratic hurdles. Small business, you don't have to babysit. You just let them go and produce. Tax cuts and exemptions would help too. Because there really is no way they will be able to feed all these people who aren't producing otherwise.
I agree, but I believe one would be willing to put up with bureaucracy if there were some fiscal advantages or (ideally) if the general level of taxation would be relatively low. In some countries it's exactly the big fishes that benefit from tax cuts and exemptions....... Eh, difficult.
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