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Old 26.01.2015, 13:25
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Re: Greek elections

Wouldn't Greece see immediate improvements if it could only devalue its currency, which it can't while tied to the Euro?

In such a case, would their debts be valued in Greek currency, or valued in Euros? This could be a point of negotiation, no?
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Old 26.01.2015, 13:37
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Re: Greek elections

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How can this work? As I understand it, they will need more money and the Germans have insisted on austerity measures as a tradeoff, which Syriza clearly does not want. What other options are there other than leaving the EU? Am I missing something?
I think they think that if they're a bit aggressive in their negotiations they could achieve more then the old government who, when the Germans said "jump" asked "how high?".

They think that Germany doesn't want to see Greece leave and so they can use the threat of leaving the Euro to leverage their own interests.

Whether or not that is a realistic assesment is another issue.

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Wouldn't Greece see immediate improvements if it could only devalue its currency, which it can't while tied to the Euro?

In such a case, would their debts be valued in Greek currency, or valued in Euros? This could be a point of negotiation, no?
Didn't Streseman get Germany out of its recession by renegotiating reparation payments with the allies?

If a country is bankrupt, lenders may be happy to walk away with what they can get than continue to try and press blood out of stones.

Last edited by amogles; 26.01.2015 at 14:02.
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Old 26.01.2015, 13:43
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Re: Greek elections

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I think they think that if they're a bit aggressive in their negotiations they could achieve more then the old government who, when the Germans said "jump" asked "how high?".

They think that Germany doesn't want to see Greece leave and so they can use the threat of leaving the Euro to leverage their own interests.

Whether or not that is a realistic assesment is another issue.
Ah, so they're betting on the "maintain the union at all costs" mentality that they think the Germans (and the rest of the EU) might have. Whether or not that will be the case will be hard to tell; there's still a last tranche of cash (€7bn at last check) that needs to be delivered and if the Greeks are talking about taking a haircut on current debt before this tranche is delivered, it appears that it could significantly complicate things moving forward.

Disclaimer: I am no economist, I don't do this for a living, batteries not included, your mileage may vary and ask your doctor if this is right for you.
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Old 26.01.2015, 13:43
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Re: Greek elections

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...its just that Greeks have always thought themselves better than their neighbours without much cause
Democracy may have been a Greek word but modern Greece was born of fascism and does not now, nor has ever belonged in the EU. I say boot them now while its easier.

what a load of BS.


I have been to Greece many times (for vacation); and some of the most hard-working yet warm-hearted people I have ever known are from there.

Greeks are friendly and open-minded, and I have had nothing but pleasure when visited as a tourist.

Yet, saying that "they do not belong to EU" - and who are you to determine that? I am not sure whether austerity is better than increased spending, indeed many economists have different opinions on that. The political climate in Greece is (to my outsider eyes) not good, given the populist "Anti-Austerity" yell from the new president, and the Golden Dawn creeping in Greece giving me chills, yet... there is hope it can get fixed.


And "modern Greece Born out of fachism" - pleeeeease. This is not even the argument, this is kindergarten talk. Ainīt gonna entertain that level of discussion, sorry.
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Old 26.01.2015, 13:48
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Re: Greek elections

Greeks are open minded and hard working? Yup, I apologise for my comments.
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Old 26.01.2015, 13:50
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Re: Greek elections

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I have been to Greece many times (for vacation); and some of the most hard-working yet warm-hearted people I have ever known are from there.

Greeks are friendly and open-minded, and I have had nothing but pleasure when visited as a tourist.

And "modern Greece Born out of fachism" - pleeeeease. This is not even the argument, this is kindergarten talk. Ainīt gonna entertain that level of discussion, sorry.
Are you sure you were in Greece?

For the second part you obviously slept during History lessons at school?
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Old 26.01.2015, 13:52
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Re: Greek elections

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But that's all they can do. And what if they do this and the EU shrugs and says "OK", who's going to be more screwed?
As I see it, they are gambling on the EU backing down. This is the only card they have to play so they might as well bet the farm that it succeeds.
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Old 26.01.2015, 13:58
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Re: Greek elections

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In such a case, would their debts be valued in Greek currency, or valued in Euros? This could be a point of negotiation, no?
As I understand things, a new currency would initally start with a value of one drachma = one euro. All debts would be converted into drachma from euro. Once the drachma began to trade on the financial markets, it's value would likely drop substantially thus also substantially reducing the debt owed.
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Old 26.01.2015, 14:00
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Re: Greek elections

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Are you sure you were in Greece?

For the second part you obviously slept during History lessons at school?
We did the Greeks at school before we even did the Romans. All I remember is that some of the goddessesd were nude

(which when you're about 10 is as good as porn)
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Old 26.01.2015, 14:03
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Re: Greek elections

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Don Molina: I apologise for being insensitive, its just that Greeks have always thought themselves better than their neighbours without much cause
Democracy may have been a Greek word but modern Greece was born of fascism and does not now, nor has ever belonged in the EU. I say boot them now while its easier.

Go visit Pireus and then Bruges and tell me what these places have in common and why they should share a political a economic structure.

For the past 5 winters (including this one) Greeks had to make due without central heating because they couldn't afford it. When you go from a bubble to that, I think you should cut someone some slack if they're acting irrationally.

Also Greece is one of the founding members of the EU, please keep that in mind.

I've visited both and I will replying that you can pick any two seemingly similar or comparable places and still get the same results. But you're comparing Piraeus (spelling please) is a working class area with the largest passenger traffic in Europe and the third largest in the EU, with Bruges, a touristy place. Compare it to Ancona and I'll say that it looks and is a million times better.

Greece was not born of fascism, it fought fascism and the assertiveness of other nations over it too many times to trust anyone, including the EU now. It has been very vulnerable and very hurt too many times, and had a major reset every 30-50 years that levelled the ing country. From an occupation, to a myriad of wars and bankruptcies, to a civil war, to a military junta, and a new bankruptcy. I don't think there is a nation with more troubled history in the EU, and I don't know where you're from, but sit and think if your country might had it a little easier than others.

Greeks have definitely made mistakes the last 30 years, I'm the first to preach that and I actually left my country because of that. But I lived it and I have every right, you're judging from a distance with opinions based on a couple of articles and reports, or even worse from internet boards.





Now as far as the promises are concerned, what they say doesn't mean squat. They said it, they got the votes, what lies ahead is honestly terra incognita. There are definitely some crazy people calling for nationalising everything, flipping the finger to everyone, and go all Venezuela on Greece. Those people will probably get locked up in a basement. Tsipras was already milder than expected last night and I'm guessing he will keep feeding bullshit and then just put some clauses in that make sense (e.g. no repayment when no growth etc).


Keep in mind that a big percentage of SYRIZA today is the PASOK of 2010, essentially the people that took Greece to the 1st memorandum.
And that 10 years ago SYRIZA, the Radical Coallition of Left Powers, was an out-of-parliament crazy person screaming around.


The main thing is that the screams will push Europe to start thinking new ways and I would even wager that ironically it might be the trigger for some more integration if they don't actually go for a Grexit. That's a good think as far as the Eurozone, the Union, and Greece are concerned.
The problem is that until they do that, those stupidos will probably start requesting higher minimum wage (which will mean exactly jack-shit, hires will be written as part time and overworked), and will push the social security system to the cliff.

Let's hope that Europe is more powerful and more assertive, despite the preaching that "government via e-mail from Berlin or the Brussels is a thing of the past".
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Old 26.01.2015, 14:09
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Re: Greek elections

For all my sympathy with the Greek people, I can understand why ordinary German taxpayers are fed up when they read stories like this:

http://www.grreporter.info/en/wealth...operties/12009
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  #32  
Old 26.01.2015, 14:12
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Re: Greek elections

Surely Greece is not the only country in this circumstance. However the EU might deal with this ought to apply a single principled approach. They really ought to debate this from a holistic perspective, rather than a contentious one. You still have Portugal, Italy, Ireland and Spain. So they ought to be concerned with any precedence they set. They ought to plan out a mechanism for dealing with these other than playing brinksmanship.
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Old 26.01.2015, 14:18
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Re: Greek elections

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For all my sympathy with the Greek people, I can understand why ordinary German taxpayers are fed up when they read stories like this:

http://www.grreporter.info/en/wealth...operties/12009
Frankly, I don't. Or they should also be fed up with their companies taxing advantage of EU membership and the common market. Not to mention their own rich people who have plenty of properties across Europe.
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  #34  
Old 26.01.2015, 14:30
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Re: Greek elections

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We did the Greeks at school before we even did the Romans. All I remember is that some of the goddessesd were nude

(which when you're about 10 is as good as porn)
Wow, you were lucky to get the naked godesses, normally the little boys were naked in Greek history
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Old 26.01.2015, 14:37
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Re: Greek elections

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For all my sympathy with the Greek people, I can understand why ordinary German taxpayers are fed up when they read stories like this:

http://www.grreporter.info/en/wealth...operties/12009

So there are some people that have money and buy property.


Oh I know, sales of Rolls in China are through the roof, those Chinese shouldn't compain about working conditions. They're all millionaires!


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Old 26.01.2015, 14:51
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Re: Greek elections

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Wow, you were lucky to get the naked godesses, normally the little boys were naked in Greek history
you must have gone to a Catholic school ?
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  #37  
Old 26.01.2015, 14:59
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Re: Greek elections

I've seen posts claiming the following:

1) Commercial ship owners (or shipping agencies, not sure which it was) are not taxed, this privilege is even supposed to be part of the greek constitution.

2) Tons of loopholes in the tax system. For instance, a new house goes completely untaxed until it's officially 100% finished. So the owner artificially leaves a few very minor parts incomplete, for many years (10-20-30 years or even more), and thus goes untaxed.

Unfortunately I see no way I could verify this myself, but maybe the greek speaking people can shed some light (preferably including source) - is that true? If only partially true, what is the actual situation? Or not true at all?
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  #38  
Old 26.01.2015, 16:02
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Re: Greek elections

Something that does not seem to get reported outside Greece is the amount of suicides in recent years, people whose job or business gone belly up or the like.

Slighty off topic, reading up on Alexis Tsipras on various sites, initially I was surprised when they referred to his wife, as domestic partner with 2 sons.

A number of reports I have seen quote 25% unemployed including 50% of those under 25.

I was unsettled to read a quote that he was intending to double the minimum wage, as I do not see how that would encourage employment.

A point in history, Gough Whitlam voted Labour Prime Minister in Australia in 1974. They brought in a law something like, if someone 23 with 3 years experience, the minimum weekly wage was to be AU$103 or 105 a week. Previous to that, there were some people on maybe 70 or 80 a week. The problem was with this increase companies then required more out of people in regards to education and experience. I felt sad for those people who had been happy with their lot, to then find themselves out of work.
His time was short lived, the Dismissal

I do wish this government well, hope they can find a middle line to improve life for many Greeks without selling out on the current & future assets. There has been enought misappropriation on the silent disappearances of Greek antiquities over the last 100+ years as well as more recent times.

I hope also they get the tax system sorted out more justly. There are regular people in Salaried jobs who pay their taxes. Then there are so many who work in the black, cash back handers. I am not talking about the farmer who brings his produce to market, but the lawyers, doctors, teachers, state workers - including politicians & not all of them, but some.

There is unemployed all over Europe, it very much frightens me to see such a large population of youth out of work. On holidays to Greece have often noticed non-greeks working at cleaning, bar jobs, shop jobs, waiters. Whilst suspect know those people are probably paid under par, it does suprise/horrify me, that a young person would rather sit on their arshe, rather than go and barter for one of those jobs. i.e. earn their own money, get their own independence.

Like many will be watching the news in the coming days/weeks/months.
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  #39  
Old 26.01.2015, 16:18
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Re: Greek elections

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I've seen posts claiming the following:

1) Commercial ship owners (or shipping agencies, not sure which it was) are not taxed, this privilege is even supposed to be part of the greek constitution.
Interesting question that, I suspect was or is true. But then again, we have so many companies in UK, that have loop holes they pay little or no tax.

Something that rarely seems to get reported China's interest in Greece as central in Europe. The Port of Pireaus, despite strikes in the past have been successful in setting up their own Terminals.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-27960661

http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinese-...ics-1416516560

They have shown interest in other parts of Greece also for setting up Terminal/Ports.
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Old 26.01.2015, 18:38
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Re: Greek elections - Greek F-16 crashes in Spain

Sad to read that Greek F-16 crashed in Spain whilst on Nato Tactical programme

Condolenes to the families of the pilots

http://www.thetoc.gr/eng/news/articl...ashes-in-spain
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