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  #41  
Old 26.01.2015, 21:18
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Re: Greek elections - Greek F-16 crashes in Spain

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Sad to read that Greek F-16 crashed in Spain whilst on Nato Tactical programme

Condolenes to the families of the pilots

http://www.thetoc.gr/eng/news/articl...ashes-in-spain
More sadness, the death of Demis Roussos aged 68 (RIP)

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  #42  
Old 26.01.2015, 21:39
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Re: Greek elections

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You still have Portugal, Italy, Ireland and Spain. So they ought to be concerned with any precedence they set.
The problem is that they are not all in the same situation! On the one hand you had Ireland who had a liquidity problem, it has now left the bail out zone and will repay the loans ahead of time and on the other hand you have Greece, which appears to have an insolvency problem, which is a different issue altogether.

Of the four, Ireland was always going to come out OK, because it has been a net exporter for along time and as one economist said, if you are continuously selling more that you are buying you can eventually work yourself out of a bad situation.

And as I understand it Portugal never enjoyed the 'good times', they have been in one long depression, made worse by the recent crises.
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  #43  
Old 26.01.2015, 21:49
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Re: Greek elections

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This could be called the Samson option. They threaten to default and risk chaos spreading to all euro countries.
There is no such option! At this point in time a Greek exit has long since been factored in and no one would be surprised about it.

One way or other Greece is going to have to some major reconstruction on it's economy and mind set. The only question is how long and painful that process will be.
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  #44  
Old 26.01.2015, 22:03
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Re: Greek elections

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As I understand things, a new currency would initally start with a value of one drachma = one euro. All debts would be converted into drachma from euro. Once the drachma began to trade on the financial markets, it's value would likely drop substantially thus also substantially reducing the debt owed.
Well first of all none of the debtors are going to accept such a conversion no matter what the Greek government says and secondly there would be almost no trade in drachma - why trade in monopoly money? Greece needs foreign currency like no other, so anyone will to hold drachma would be a fool!
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Old 26.01.2015, 22:14
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Re: Greek elections

Nobody in Greece wants a different currency or to leave the EU, including the winning party. All they want is to negotiate a better deal as the existing one in unviable, all GR will do is get more debt to repay old debt and will at some point default if nothing changes.
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Old 26.01.2015, 22:33
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Re: Greek elections

It is very sad that Greece has chosen the worst solution, where the new party is promising them good times ahead, when they are not willing to change their ways. True they have had 5 years of desperate economising but until they can run an effective tax system, they will not be digging themselves out of their hole.

I don't think the EU is going to be sympathetic at all. The first tranche of lending didn't work, and reluctantly the second lending tranche was provided. I think Greece will now be simply left to it's own devices, & until the people at the top change their attitudes, the Greeks will suffer more. The EU will not back down to the Greek threats, otherwise Spain, Portugal, Italy and France will be encouraged to default as well! Congratulations to Ireland, they have gone through austerity too, repaid the loans, and can now see a future again.

Where are all the billions of Euros that left the Greek banks before the crisis? It is all very sad, so many decent people suffering from the stupidity and greed of the few. The EU tax payers are owed billions, why should they throw more money away? The loans were not entirely from Germany, many other countries lent them money, at about 5% interest. If Greece defaults, the debt will have to be written off by the EU, but that will not solve Greece's problems, without a market and further help, they will slide into worse poverty.

I think the government should threaten to take Greek citizenship away from the tax defaulters, that might persuade the shipping owners to come back into the fold, with their untaxed capital. The Greek government could also issue international writs against Greek shipping, stopping ships in foreign ports until the taxes are paid.
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  #47  
Old 26.01.2015, 22:39
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Re: Greek elections

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...all they want is to negotiate a better deal...
the only leverage Greece has to try and negotiate a "better deal" is the threat of default, which is no leverage at all.



I do not mean this personally against Greece or anybody of Greek heritage, but, regardless of what we read every day in the press, the EU would be better off without Greece. likely also without close to 50% of its membership, actually. at the end of the day, the EU is nothing more than a free trade association, and economies that are not large or sophisticated enough to participate are simply not accretive. and, of course, economies that are corrupt or otherwise incapable (or unwilling) to enforce basic principles of trade law do not generally make great free trade partners to begin with.

the biggest threat facing the EU right now is people's continued confusion of politics with economics - to be successful, the EU needs to have much less to do with the former and much more to do with the latter.
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  #48  
Old 26.01.2015, 22:46
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Re: Greek elections

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Nobody in Greece wants a different currency or to leave the EU, including the winning party. All they want is to negotiate a better deal as the existing one in unviable, all GR will do is get more debt to repay old debt and will at some point default if nothing changes.
Indeed. Starting with the Greek population, who need to wake up and realise that things need to change. The gravy train left the station a long time ago and until they accept that they are going to have to work and pay taxes not much is going to change.

Kick the country out of the EU & Eurozone. I never really understood why they were included in the first place TBH.
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  #49  
Old 26.01.2015, 23:34
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Re: Greek elections

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Where are all the billions of Euros that left the Greek banks before the crisis? It is all very sad, so many decent people suffering from the stupidity and greed of the few.
Probably and tragically, right here, in Switzerland.
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Old 26.01.2015, 23:44
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Re: Greek elections

Amazing how people who have no clue about a country and its citizens beyong eating soublaki and tzatziki on their holidays, express their stereotyped opinions about lazy, non-tax-paying Greeks wherever they can.

This is the part I hate more about my countrymen, they allowed everyone to disgrace the country's 4000 year heritage, by being themselves and also voting for greedy and corrupt governments in the last 40 years.

I could write books about how people from the UK, France and Germany should be the last to speak about how lame/lazy/scroungers/fascists/whatever-else-BS-u-think-of other countries and their citizens are but I won't as it's futile. Every country gets the politicians it deserves and this is no exception.

I just wish that people would start using their brains and stop believing whatever crap the media serves them but then again....I'd have to believe in unicorns too.
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  #51  
Old 27.01.2015, 00:16
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Re: Greek elections

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Amazing how people who have no clue about a country and its citizens beyong eating soublaki and tzatziki on their holidays, express their stereotyped opinions about lazy, non-tax-paying Greeks wherever they can.

This is the part I hate more about my countrymen, they allowed everyone to disgrace the country's 4000 year heritage, by being themselves and also voting for greedy and corrupt governments in the last 40 years.

I could write books about how people from the UK, France and Germany should be the last to speak about how lame/lazy/scroungers/fascists/whatever-else-BS-u-think-of other countries and their citizens are but I won't as it's futile. Every country gets the politicians it deserves and this is no exception.

I just wish that people would start using their brains and stop believing whatever crap the media serves them but then again....I'd have to believe in unicorns too.
It so funny if it wouldn't be so tragic that it never takes long before Greeks bring up their glorious distant past. It is really a mentality problem in my opinion, the result as well of decades of nationalistic rhetoric in schools which makes so many people believe they deserve spmething and that they are better than the others. As long as the Greek national ego doesn't change, i don't see much hope really for the country. i can't understand Europe's naievity in believing Greece will ever pay back their debt. before asking solidarity again to the rest of Europe, when is the Orthodox church going to pay taxes, or the shipping industry or where is solidarity from the Greek diaspora. it so easy always to blame others, preferably foreigners, it's kind of a national sport in Greece. i lived in Cyprus and had a lot to do with Greece and Europe really no idea how bad it is. We couldn't get any public loans done in Greece as a bank as we refused to pay fakellaki (envelopes) to the mayor and his treasurer, just to give just one example. virtually all the clever people with diploma's seemed to have only one ambition: get a stable well paid job in government and go home at 2.30pm, it's so sad for the country this mentality.
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  #52  
Old 27.01.2015, 00:21
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Re: Greek elections

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Nobody in Greece wants a different currency or to leave the EU, including the winning party.
Well, I do (want to leave the euro, not the EU).
I am not in Greece but I am Greek.
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  #53  
Old 27.01.2015, 00:23
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Re: Greek elections

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Amazing how people who have no clue about a country and its citizens beyong eating soublaki and tzatziki on their holidays, express their stereotyped opinions about lazy, non-tax-paying Greeks wherever they can.
When an estimated 25% of the country's economy is in an untaxed black market, it doesn't help to end the perpetuation of the stereotype...
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Old 27.01.2015, 00:25
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Re: Greek elections

Dreams: they are never in the place you expect them to be.
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Old 27.01.2015, 00:28
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Re: Greek elections

Also, even though tax evasion is a big problem in Greece, it's not the lack of state-income the main issue. It is rather the extent of state expenditures with too many public servants, hugely inefficient utilities throwing money away while being held hostage from the intensely political unions, and a lot of misappropriated funds in "competitions" between any sorts of equipment suppliers. Be it gauze priced 50 times higher than normal and sold to hospitals, or over-ordering of expiring drugs that are left in warehouses to expire, or simply lost money like the "Mall" case in Marousi before the olympics.

That's the real issue.
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Old 27.01.2015, 00:34
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Re: Greek elections

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Well, I do (want to leave the euro, not the EU).
I am not in Greece but I am Greek.
Of course you do if you are paid in CHF and want to buy stuff on the cheap on your holidays, but do you have anyone you care about back home? I doubt you'd like to see what would happen to their lives if something like that happened.


To all the judge-jury-and-executioners out there: have you taken a good hard look at your own countries and their problems before ganging up on Greece? If you did, you'd see that countries are not that different and a few bad apples don't mean everyone is corrupt.

Of course we'll talk about our history. When Germany almost ended half the world 70 years ago and we lost half our country and citizens trying to stop it while the french bent over and the Swiss made their money selling to both sides, of course we will never forget.

Germany easily forgets what it has done to Greece and countless other countries and how their debt was forgiven after WWII, something they so readily deny today to do to anyone else. (and I am not saying it should either, for the record. Just shows how two-faced some countries are).

The biggest scandals in Europe were coming from German and French companies but everyone conveniently forgets that. I am the first to say Greeks have a lot of bad and corrupt practices and need to put a lot of people in jail if the country is to prosper. But that's nothing compared to what should happen to those in the leading northern-bloc countries leaderships and their actions. (from all the recent wars, economic crises. scandals)

History is not linear, it repeats. Those who do not learn from it repeat the same mistakes and unfortunately most southern European countries today are doing exactly that.

Some food for thought from zerohedge for those who bother to read anything else than Fox News: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...gest-otherwise
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Old 27.01.2015, 00:38
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Re: Greek elections - Greek F-16 crashes in Spain

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Sad to read that Greek F-16 crashed in Spain whilst on Nato Tactical programme

Condolenes to the families of the pilots

http://www.thetoc.gr/eng/news/articl...ashes-in-spain
8 french pilots died when greek jet crashed on them.....can't avoid seeing the similarity with the eurozone discussion (french tax payers lent 60billion€).

The problem is not the greeks but the banks who lent all this money based on fake data during 2000-2007.
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Old 27.01.2015, 00:45
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Re: Greek elections

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Amazing how people who have no clue about a country and its citizens express their stereotyped opinions about lazy, non-tax-paying Greeks wherever they can.

This is the part I hate more about my countrymen, they allowed everyone to disgrace the country's 4000 year heritage, by being themselves and also voting for greedy and corrupt governments in the last 40 years.

I could write books about how people from the UK, France and Germany should be the last to speak about how lame/lazy/scroungers/fascists/whatever-else-BS-u-think-of other countries and their citizens are but I won't as it's futile. Every country gets the politicians it deserves and this is no exception.

I just wish that people would start using their brains and stop believing whatever crap the media serves them but then again....I'd have to believe in unicorns too.
But what do you suggest your ordinary Greek person does? They have selected a party that have said they intend to default on the loans, and also intend to threaten the EU with their departure. How can that be a solution?

Renegotiating the loans and throwing more money at Greece is not a solution for the EU, not until Greece solves the internal problems with its governance. If Greece leaves the EU who will help them? How will Greece recover from poverty? How will it pay for mineral oil and all the other things it needs? Why should the EU buy olive oil from Greece when there is Italian and Spanish oil, without any import tariffs!

What IS the alternative to working WITH the EU? Did Cuba recover again after upsetting the world and becoming communist? Greece will surely go the same way, with no more exports or imports available, it will sink into a home grown economy, with people just working the land to stay alive.

Perhaps then the Greek people will wake up one day and get rid of the corrupt politicians, and the dreamers that think paradise must be just around the corner...
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Old 27.01.2015, 01:21
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Re: Greek elections

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Of course you do if you are paid in CHF and want to buy stuff on the cheap on your holidays, but do you have anyone you care about back home? I doubt you'd like to see what would happen to their lives if something like that happened.
You have nothing to back this up with.
I've been saying that Greece and a strong currency cannot work together since 2009.
I am not a communist. I love capitalism. I just don't see how Greece and Germany can have the same currency.

In 2010-2011 I did a Master in Business at one of the top European business schools, ESCP Europe. I spent the second semester of this program in the Berlin campus of the school.
The first time the discussion came to Greece (quite a hot topic back then), some Germans turned to me and told that in their opinion Greece should be kicked out of the Eurozone. When they finished I told them that I only disagree on the "kicked out" wording and that we should agree that this doesn't work and make the necessary legal changes for Greece to leave the Eurozone.
By the end of the semester most of my German classmates were trying to convince me that it's for everybody's interest that Greece stays in the Eurozone.

So dude, please answer my arguments if you want or ignore me, I really don't care.
But please don't try to explain my opinion by assuming that it is what it is because of my personal interest. I expect an apology.
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Old 27.01.2015, 01:23
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Re: Greek elections

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Some food for thought from zerohedge for those who bother to read anything else than Fox News: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...gest-otherwise
What ZeroHedge does not mention is that Germany took on an enormous task after 1990, with rebuilding the ex-DDR: almost everything had to be replaced, about 25% or so of the present infrastructure. This explains why they were not doing so well before the Euro.

Before the Euro was founded, in the 1970s and early 80s, the London financial newspapers were predicting a catastrophe in the Mediterranean countries. They predicted effects of high inflation and unemployment, because the north and south have different economies, exactly as your quotation explains. London argued that you cannot have financial harmony without political agreement. If you have different tax collection and spending, you cannot have a singular economical currency system. With one currency, the countries could not proceed at different speeds without something breaking, as it has. The Euro crisis was doomed from the start by politicians trying to fit everyone into the same financial model. The solution is probably for everyone to leave the Euro, or to agree on exactly the same taxation.

Note that the countries outside the Euro have not had financial burdens, as their economies are not restricted by the Frankfurt European Bank, their currencies are allowed to float and release tensions (I am not an economist, and I struggle to understand it all).

The newspapers pointed out that in the south, the USA suffered depression in the 20s and 30s. This was as a result of the US civil war. Only gradually did the south become wealthy after the civil war, as they were dominated by the northern states which had won the war.
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