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  #81  
Old 27.01.2015, 18:14
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Re: Greek elections

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Clear to me is that Greece cannot finance a new currency
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  #82  
Old 27.01.2015, 18:29
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Re: Greek elections

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.... places like Texas which got rich on oil, .....
Greece is said to have huge oil and gas resources. They should tap it and use the proceeds wisely.
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  #83  
Old 27.01.2015, 21:52
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Re: Greek elections

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Amazing how people who have no clue about a country and its citizens beyong eating soublaki and tzatziki on their holidays, express their stereotyped opinions about lazy, non-tax-paying Greeks wherever they can.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=greeks+avoiding+tax

No. No. Really it is all made up.

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This is the part I hate more about my countrymen, they allowed everyone to disgrace the country's 4000 year heritage, by being themselves and also voting for greedy and corrupt governments in the last 40 years.
That's right. Blame me.

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I could write books about how people from the UK, France and Germany should be the last to speak about how lame/lazy/scroungers/fascists/whatever-else-BS-u-think-of other countries and their citizens are but I won't as it's futile. Every country gets the politicians it deserves and this is no exception.
And the relevance of this is? (Here's a free hint - there is none. It is called a straw man argument.)

As you point out, you get the government you deserve.

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I just wish that people would start using their brains and stop believing whatever crap the media serves them but then again....I'd have to believe in unicorns too.
Ah. The old unicorn argument. The preserve of the desperate...
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  #84  
Old 28.01.2015, 01:26
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Re: Greek elections

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Are you taking wagers on that? The CHF may still be around when the EUR is history.

Only if some countries like Kosovo, Greece, Turkey, Ireland etc join the CHF
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  #85  
Old 28.01.2015, 01:44
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Re: Greek elections

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I've seen posts claiming the following:

1) Commercial ship owners (or shipping agencies, not sure which it was) are not taxed, this privilege is even supposed to be part of the greek constitution.

2) Tons of loopholes in the tax system. For instance, a new house goes completely untaxed until it's officially 100% finished. So the owner artificially leaves a few very minor parts incomplete, for many years (10-20-30 years or even more), and thus goes untaxed.

Unfortunately I see no way I could verify this myself, but maybe the greek speaking people can shed some light (preferably including source) - is that true? If only partially true, what is the actual situation? Or not true at all?
You are correct, but the sad thing is that things are even worst, tragic actually. Did anyone know that free businessmen in Greece, like doctors, architects, merchants etc, meaning the people who make a lot of money, just make their own tax report and just get taxed according to it?So people who make hundreds of thousands or millions pay what working people who get simly a wage pay , as tax.And that, ladies and gentlemen is what caused the state accounts to be empty, at leat 80% of the reason. Not the public employees who used to get a reasonable wage and pay their taxies, and they were not that many. Totally corrupt govern ments ruled Greece, but people used to get good enough wages, so nobody looked close to anything, but there's an awakening, partly because of the high education of the younger generation.
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  #86  
Old 28.01.2015, 02:17
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Re: Greek elections

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Please allow me to clarify some things about tax evasion:

a) Tax evasion and self-employment have a clear correlation (evidence from Sweden, and Germany - 2nd link is a pdf)
Greece has according to Eurostat's data of 2012 31.9% of the population self-employed, which is double the EU average of about 15% and more than 30% more than Italy in second place with 23.4%.

Also Italy in second place has a bigger black market with relation to its GDP so the Italians are (proportionally and with very rough numbers but sound assumptions) evading a lot more than the Greeks.


b) Tax evasion is a thing, it exists, and it is undeniable. However, a Greek is not tax-conscious or tax-aware (forgive me, my English fail me). Meaning that they see absolutely no reason to pay taxes. In Norway you pay exorbitant taxes, but you do have substantial returns on what you pay. You have a functional health system, education, social security, etc.
In Greece you are called to pay for the taxes and then you have to pay for a private school or a after-school center for your kid to actually learn something, because public school rarely works. You go to the hospital and at some cases you will be called to bribe someone to get a bed in the hospital, or you will just be directed to go to the doctor's private practice, where you will be charged and will not receive a receipt, meaning the doctor will not report the visit.

The average Greek has zero incentive to pay for taxes because on top of that they have to pay for most of the stuff that their taxes are supposed to provide. Of course that creates a vicious circle, or more of a downward spiral, since the less taxes you pay, the crappier everything gets so then you have even less of an incentive to pay taxes.




Now, the fact that there are problems in a country, doesn't mean that the EU, or the Eurozone should be clear of them. If that's the case, then there is no point in the EU, and there is probably no point in the US either, or they should drop some poor states with huge problems. Hell, the US had a full on civil war and were actively trying to separate, but they didn't. I hope that it doesn't take the north to come down to the see with freaking tanks, but if the EU realises that together is better than apart things can change.


The EU is and can remain a superpower, much more than the sum of its parts. All it takes is not treating each other like burden or despots, but like partners. When this happens, and integration becomes more real, then the EU can help PIGS get better, and the then healing PIGS can help the EU grow even stronger.

Or let's just go back to the 80s politically. See how that works...





Edit: @ xynth

1) Greece hasn't defaulted, it's still paying its debts normally and a restructuring promised 2 years ago has yet to come. Tax payers have thrown money, but they're getting good interest back, please let's keep that in mind, until there is a haircut.

2) From my understanding, the mentality in GR right now is not to give the EU the shaft, but to demand a more realistic way of managing the debt and how it's going to be repaid. The next Minister of Econ. said to BBC 4 radio that they intend to pay as much as possible, and that the talk about default is "posturing before negotiations". Trust me, the more hours are passing the more I see these guys just bending over in the end... Let them form a government and by the 15th of Feb we'll know what is coming. Until then it's just sensationalist remarks on TV from people that are enjoying their soon to be new chairs
You are both mostly right. Self emloyed people in Greece don't pay taxes because nobody checks what they make, so they are charged according to what they report about their incomes. The new government seems so optimistic because as they say, they will make those who have money, to finally pay by just taxing reasonably their large incomes and they will fight the black market. Previous governments did not do that because their voters are the people mentioned above, so in order to get the money for the dept this policy creted they cat wages and overtaxed the working people. But by making the middle class almost poor, they outraged them and made them seek the problem and the degree of corruption, plus many businessmen lost their customers and so their incomes due to the low wages, and realized that that a completely new and clean government must change some things. It is almost as simple as that.
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  #87  
Old 28.01.2015, 02:25
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Re: Greek elections

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Greece is said to have huge oil and gas resources. They should tap it and use the proceeds wisely.

Only if it is sold on the market is it worth something. Greece has more olives than Italy or Spain. But WHO sells olive oil in Central Europe / Western Europe ?
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  #88  
Old 28.01.2015, 02:29
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Re: Greek elections

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You are both mostly right. Self emloyed people in Greece don't pay taxes because nobody checks what they make, so they are charged according to what they report about their incomes. The new government seems so optimistic because as they say, they will make those who have money, to finally pay by just taxing reasonably their large incomes and they will fight the black market. Previous governments did not do that because their voters are the people mentioned above, so in order to get the money for the dept this policy creted they cat wages and overtaxed the working people. But by making the middle class almost poor, they outraged them and made them seek the problem and the degree of corruption, plus many businessmen lost their customers and so their incomes due to the low wages, and realized that that a completely new and clean government must change some things. It is almost as simple as that.

So sorry, but in Switzerland, also as a self-employed, you have to declare your income very precisely, as it is checked by tax inspectors and VAT inspectors quite rigorously
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  #89  
Old 28.01.2015, 10:49
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Re: Greek elections

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Only if it is sold on the market is it worth something. Greece has more olives than Italy or Spain. But WHO sells olive oil in Central Europe / Western Europe ?
ahem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_o...nd_consumption

Spoiler for those too lazy to click the above linke: Greece is #3 globally after Spain and Italy.

From the above statistic, it would seem furthermore that Greek olive oil production is tapering whereas most of the other major producers are stepping up production.

Last edited by amogles; 28.01.2015 at 11:00.
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  #90  
Old 28.01.2015, 11:02
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Re: Greek elections

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Not the public employees who used to get a reasonable wage and pay their taxies, and they were not that many.
Dimitra please, let's get 1 thing straight here.

Public servants DO NOT pay taxes, they just give back to the state some of the money they got "on the 9th of the month".

Public servants are not part of the productive force, and they do not actually contribute anything to any economic system. In these positions it is idiotic to hire 25-40 year old people that could be highly productive, and instead all the occupations that supposedly require early retirement (police, fire-department, military) could provide the people working there. You can't get a 30yo working as a freaking registrar or a clerk in the local tax office, and at the same time let a 45 year old retire because [reasons]. It is destroying the economy.


Yes the doctors and the lawyers and everybody is the devil, yes they should be better checked. But they're not 80% responsible for the empty coffers. As I've clearly demonstrated earlier the black market in Greece (i.e. the extent of tax evasion) is not even the biggest in the EU proportionally to the GDP.

If you're looking for the good old days now it's your time. They're saying they're hiring everyone back (I'd like to see them try)...



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So sorry, but in Switzerland, also as a self-employed, you have to declare your income very precisely, as it is checked by tax inspectors and VAT inspectors quite rigorously
A judge of the supreme court of Greece once said very accurately in an interview:
Greece has excellent laws in most cases, the problem is that none of them is actually applied.

A position in the "IRS special forces" or the Taskforce against Economic Crime as it's called in Greece is rumoured to "cost" some hundreds of thousands of Euros in bribes and favours, since once you're in you can basically shake down any business you like. There's no control.
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  #91  
Old 28.01.2015, 11:29
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Re: Greek elections

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Public servants are not part of the productive force, and they do not actually contribute anything to any economic system. In these positions it is idiotic to hire 25-40 year old people that could be highly productive, and instead all the occupations that supposedly require early retirement (police, fire-department, military) could provide the people working there. You can't get a 30yo working as a freaking registrar or a clerk in the local tax office, and at the same time let a 45 year old retire because [reasons]. It is destroying the economy.
This sounds good in theory, but is actually being done anywhere?

Can you retrain somebody who has spent their life as a firefighter or a policeman at the age of 45 and teach him to scrutinize people's tax returns or verify that some proposed new building meets all the regulations? I would think the skillsets we are talking about are entirely different.
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  #92  
Old 28.01.2015, 12:44
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Re: Greek elections

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This sounds good in theory, but is actually being done anywhere?

Can you retrain somebody who has spent their life as a firefighter or a policeman at the age of 45 and teach him to scrutinize people's tax returns or verify that some proposed new building meets all the regulations? I would think the skillsets we are talking about are entirely different.
Be that as it may, there are unfortunately myriads of positions in the Greek public sector that the requirements are "can you read and write Greek".

You don't need special training to issue certificates of birth, renew passports, handle car sales documents, etc.

I'm not saying that every position is like that, but most of them are. Take the local Kreisburo and 95% of what they're doing. I would hazard a guess that there is no need for training more than a couple of weeks worth...
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  #93  
Old 28.01.2015, 12:58
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Re: Greek elections

Well it doesn't seem very likely that Greece will sort out its problems due to the entrenched system and culture, so it will just have to continue its economic slide and maybe live off a few EU handouts.

Meanwhile, the cream of the crop will leave for greener pastures elsewhere. Survival of the fittest works also for countries and systems.
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  #94  
Old 28.01.2015, 13:14
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Re: Greek elections

So Greece put a stop to the sale of Piraeus Port. I think it is a good idea to put a stop of asset sales to foreigners until they level things out, particularly real estate. Otherwise, they can sell the whole country out. Although I do fantasize about buying an island.

What are some of the bargains to be had in Greece?
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Old 28.01.2015, 13:36
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Re: Greek elections

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So Greece put a stop to the sale of Piraeus Port. I think it is a good idea to put a stop of asset sales to foreigners until they level things out, particularly real estate. Otherwise, they can sell the whole country out. Although I do fantasize about buying an island.

What are some of the bargains to be had in Greece?
Or maybe they should just sell off a few islands to Germany to pay off the debt.
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  #96  
Old 28.01.2015, 14:19
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Re: Greek elections

How about Greece reducing it's military spending?
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  #97  
Old 28.01.2015, 23:34
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Re: Greek elections

For those who not only care about numbers, this is a well written piece that might help you get a glimpse of how greeks have been feeling

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...P=share_btn_fb
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  #98  
Old 28.01.2015, 23:56
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Re: Greek elections

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How about Greece reducing it's military spending?
With such close proximity to all the mess next door, military spending might just be what pulls them through. It did wonders for... errrr... lets not Godwin this thread.
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Old 29.01.2015, 00:11
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Re: Greek elections

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For those who not only care about numbers, this is a well written piece that might help you get a glimpse of how greeks have been feeling

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...P=share_btn_fb
I've read it all and I feel...Greek!
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  #100  
Old 29.01.2015, 00:21
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Re: Greek elections

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How about Greece reducing it's military spending?
Yeah about that. The new minister of Defense is a right wing nut (cool collaboration of the radical left, right) so I wouldn't hold my breath.

Solid idea though. I really wish they could actually do it.
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