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  #101  
Old 29.01.2015, 09:44
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Re: Greek elections

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With such close proximity to all the mess next door, military spending might just be what pulls them through. It did wonders for... errrr... lets not Godwin this thread.
is military spending taken into account by the EU and IMF austerity plans?
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  #102  
Old 29.01.2015, 12:02
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Re: Greek elections

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For those who not only care about numbers, this is a well written piece that might help you get a glimpse of how greeks have been feeling

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...P=share_btn_fb
Thanks, an article well worth reading.

It is going to be a few weeks/months before we see the changes that
Alexis Tsipras brings to Greece.

I have interest in what Ministers he appoints to different positions.
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  #103  
Old 29.01.2015, 12:08
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Re: Greek elections

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Thanks, an article well worth reading.

It is going to be a few weeks/months before we see the changes that
Alexis Tsipras brings to Greece.

I have interest in what Ministers he appoints to different positions.
A communist promising everything without being in touch with economic reality, this only has one ending, and it ain't gonna be a good one!

Greeks, if you thought the last 5 years were miserable, wait couple of years under the commi/nazi leadership...2008-2013 will look like kindergarten play compared to what's following now.
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  #104  
Old 29.01.2015, 12:17
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Re: Greek elections

The honest Greek people didn't deserve the leaders they have received, all the elections seem to have been won by charming men with ulterior motives. Isn't there anyone there whom is not corrupt, and yet still capable of governing? Someone like Μάργκαρετ Θάτσερ maybe.
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  #105  
Old 29.01.2015, 12:24
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Re: Greek elections

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The honest Greek people didn't deserve the leaders they have received, all the elections seem to have been won by charming men with ulterior motives. Isn't there anyone there whom is not corrupt, and yet still capable of governing? Someone like Μάργκαρετ Θάτσερ maybe.
The real issue here is the Balkan mentality, Greeks don't want to change. They want to have a working hours of a Albanian government office employee and salary like a German mechanical engineer. That just will not happen ever again, we saw how it ended.

Margareth, really? To sell off every large public company of vital interest to the country? No thanks. Although at this moment it might be necessary. You have to pay your debts somehow.
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  #106  
Old 29.01.2015, 12:34
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Re: Greek elections

Even if such a leader existed he would still get 0.5% of the votes.

It's the same reason the French vote for Holland and the Americans vote for Obama. People everywhere want the easy solutions, the storytelling, the lie-to-your-face-but-feels-good mentality.

Have you taken a good look at the italian Prime Ministers? Mr Bunga Bunga or the current idiot? Does that look like a guy who'll pull Italy out of its crisis?

As much as everyone loves to bash Greece (especially greeks who live abroad), thinking this has to do with one country is not only naive but borders with ignorance.

The euro was always a failure from the start, no country should have agreed to it. If every country had its own currency, thus the tools to fight recessions, it would also be liable for anything it does. No bailouts, no loans. Reap what you sow and so on, as it always was.

You can't have fiscal unions without a centralised decision maker. Either make this the United States of Europe for all 19 countries or break it up as it clearly doesn't work for anyone besides the 3 richest countries in the Union.
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  #107  
Old 29.01.2015, 12:34
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Re: Greek elections

The UK in the late 1970's had a similar situation to that in Greece today. We had 23% inflation, not enough coal followed by 3 days each week without electricity, even toilet rolls disappeared from the shelves!

Then in 1979 Margaret came along, and changed the country for ever. Now it is the best economy in Europe, despite lots of immigration, unemployment even went down in December!

There is usually no gain without pain, and Greece has to learn this.
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  #108  
Old 29.01.2015, 12:49
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Re: Greek elections

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There is usually no gain without pain, and Greece has to learn this.

Um... did I really just read an Englishman try to lecture Greeks on the subject of pain?


Not sure where to start, really...
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  #109  
Old 29.01.2015, 12:49
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Re: Greek elections

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The euro was always a failure from the start, no country should have agreed to it. If every country had its own currency, thus the tools to fight recessions, it would also be liable for anything it does. No bailouts, no loans. Reap what you sow and so on, as it always was.
You are forgetting that Greece forged *cheated* financial data in order to become part of the EUR, which you can't blame the EU for Greek government being incapable of sorting their own finance? The debts were taken to make projects and investments in the country to make better economic, business conditions and bring back he money somehow, not to retire at 45 if you worked for 10 years in the government or to get 3000 EUR for washing your hands at work. People saw these money as "free money" let's spend it on what we want, hence the people that have given this money are pissed off because obviously you don't deserve to be supported and you were part of the club because you cheated your way.

It's like getting your early inheritance from your rich grandfather you accumulated it all his life and he is giving it you to start a new business and you spend all of it in 3 nights on hookers and blow. It's great thing to do for 3 nights, but what about the future?

Don't blame the EU or EUR or Italy or Spain, you only have yourself to blame (not you, Greek people, not just politicians)

There was a joke in the 90s, that the train line between Athens and Thessaloniki was so expensive to maintain because of too many employees, too less passengers and too many subsides, the joke went like this, "it would be less expensive to abandon the railway and pay a taxi fare for each passenger to take the 500km route"


Funny thing is, that appears to be TRUE! If you put 2 passengers in one taxi and pay them the fare, it would be LESS EXPENSIVE THAN RUNNING THE RAILWAY!

And this is only a very very small amount of how the money were abused and spent in Greece
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  #110  
Old 29.01.2015, 12:53
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Re: Greek elections

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Even if such a leader existed he would still get 0.5% of the votes.

It's the same reason the French vote for Holland and the Americans vote for Obama. People everywhere want the easy solutions, the storytelling, the lie-to-your-face-but-feels-good mentality.

Have you taken a good look at the italian Prime Ministers? Mr Bunga Bunga or the current idiot? Does that look like a guy who'll pull Italy out of its crisis?
But then the Greeks get everything they deserve.
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  #111  
Old 29.01.2015, 13:14
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Re: Greek elections

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You are forgetting that Greece forged *cheated* financial data in order to become part of the EUR, which you can't blame the EU for Greek government being incapable of sorting their own finance?
Idefix, although very much of what you wrote is true, the EU has to be blamed too all the same.

I had a laughing fit when I heard that Greece was now fulfilling the criteria for joining the Euro. Who could ever believe that a nation that had had an annual inflation in the range of 15 - 20% for decades all of a sudden was below 2%, within ONE year without cheating in the multi-billion range? But the EU believed it.
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  #112  
Old 29.01.2015, 13:31
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Re: Greek elections

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Idefix, although very much of what you wrote is true, the EU has to be blamed too all the same.

I had a laughing fit when I heard that Greece was now fulfilling the criteria for joining the Euro. Who could ever believe that a nation that had had an annual inflation in the range of 15 - 20% for decades all of a sudden was below 2%, within ONE year without cheating in the multi-billion range? But the EU believed it.
It will be the same with Turkey, whenever that day comes.
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  #113  
Old 29.01.2015, 13:44
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Re: Greek elections

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Idefix, although very much of what you wrote is true, the EU has to be blamed too all the same.

I had a laughing fit when I heard that Greece was now fulfilling the criteria for joining the Euro. Who could ever believe that a nation that had had an annual inflation in the range of 15 - 20% for decades all of a sudden was below 2%, within ONE year without cheating in the multi-billion range? But the EU believed it.
What about Italian lira, Spanish pesetas or any currency from Southern Europe?
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  #114  
Old 29.01.2015, 13:44
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Re: Greek elections

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Idefix, although very much of what you wrote is true, the EU has to be blamed too all the same.

I had a laughing fit when I heard that Greece was now fulfilling the criteria for joining the Euro. Who could ever believe that a nation that had had an annual inflation in the range of 15 - 20% for decades all of a sudden was below 2%, within ONE year without cheating in the multi-billion range? But the EU believed it.
And if they had openly declared Greece to be lying would that not have come with a massive "Nazi" backlash claiming that others such as Italy were not subject to the same scrutiny ?

EDIT: Point is that Greece did lie and to date has not had to pay any penalty as a result of that fraud - which they - the Greek people , the official statistics office and Greek politicians should be repeatedly reminded of.
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  #115  
Old 29.01.2015, 15:52
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Re: Greek elections

Best article I've read in days

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/lie...conomypolitics

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Greece’s gross debts add up to around $320 billion in nominal value, according to the International Monetary Fund. That’s big compared to the Greek economy, but tiny compared to the world outside. It’s less than 3% of the entire eurozone economy, which is about $13.5 trillion. So even if Greece refused to pay one more nickel of its debts — an outcome no one is suggesting the eurozone could make up the difference with about eight days’ output ... or an hour’s money-printing by the ECB.

And the real value of the Greek national debt is even less than this nominal sum. That’s because the markets have already adjusted themselves sensibly to the situation. According to the National Bank of Greece, shorter-term government bonds are already trading at about 85 cents on the euro, while longer-term bonds are down to between 65 and 50 cents on the euro.

According to calculations by Felix Brill, chief economist at investment firm Wellershoff & Partners in Zurich, Switzerland, publicly traded Greek government bonds are trading at an average of 70 cents on the euro.


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Second, the idea that a partial Greek debt default would somehow represent an earthquake in the world of finance, or endanger the eurozone, or be an improvident reward for the reckless and the feckless, is nonsense.

Nobody forced German and other bankers to buy Greek government bonds at absurd prices during the bubble.

Nobody forced banks to lend money to the Greek government on nearly the same terms as they lent to, say, the German or Dutch governments.

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The Greek economy is smaller than that of Louisiana. If a small U.S. state had to renegotiate muni-bond coupons, would it cause a U.S. financial collapse? Would it break up the dollar?

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If Germany after World War II had been hampered by repaying the world all its past debts, including all the money it owed everyone for Hitler, it would never have recovered.



Greece is a founding member of the EU. Small or big doesn't matter. It's supposedly an equal partner and at some point it should be treated as such. Germany was the owner of the worst war ever on the face of this planet and yet everything was forgiven in the light of moving on, and doing something better.

Yet Greece, in the era of a unionised Europe, with partner states (supposedly) closer than ever, is faced with the worst sentiment I've ever seen. Yes things are wrong, yes there are problems, yes things should change. Austerity punished the Greeks enough, the country lost 15% of its previous GDP. OK some of it is a correction from a bubble but some of it is just lost years of production.

The man is right. Let's just move on with it.
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  #116  
Old 29.01.2015, 16:31
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Re: Greek elections

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It's supposedly an equal partner and at some point it should be treated as such.
The crisis has shown that all EU members are not equal partners.
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  #117  
Old 29.01.2015, 16:32
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Re: Greek elections

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The crisis has shown that all EU members are not equal partners.

I think any Romanian or Bulgarian could have already told you that!
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  #118  
Old 29.01.2015, 16:52
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Re: Greek elections

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The crisis has shown that all EU members are not equal partners.
Equality is one thing, but cultural homogeneity is another. Where the EU really goes wrong is when it starts to disregard and inadvertently trample on cultures. Perhaps because they see no cultures in numerals.

I think a big part of the problem is that the Germans tried to force the Greeks to think and behave like Germans. That germanic way of life works best in bad weather. I think that is really hard to live out in great weather, like what you have in Greece. Besides, why would a Greek want to become like a German?
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  #119  
Old 29.01.2015, 17:09
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Re: Greek elections

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Besides, why would a Greek want to become like a German?


?

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  #120  
Old 30.01.2015, 01:03
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Re: Greek elections

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The UK in the late 1970's had a similar situation to that in Greece today. We had 23% inflation, not enough coal followed by 3 days each week without electricity, even toilet rolls disappeared from the shelves!

Then in 1979 Margaret came along, and changed the country for ever. Now it is the best economy in Europe, despite lots of immigration, unemployment even went down in December!

There is usually no gain without pain, and Greece has to learn this.
There was a change in age, from 16 to 18 years for anyone who could leave education in UK. i.e. if you were born on or after 1st September 1997, then you must stay in education for additional 2 years, so Yes one would expect unemployment in UK to go down.
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