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  #141  
Old 31.01.2015, 08:27
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Re: Greek elections

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So sad to see people losing an argument and reacting so badly to facts, almost laughable if it wasn't pathetic. Back to your hole now and leave discussions for grown ups.
Which facts would those be now ???

You have refused to engage on the fact that the Greek state committed wholesale fraud to join the Euro area , that borrowing without paying back is stealing. Those are facts. Greece has not been saddled with war reparations so comparison with Germany in the 40s is just BS and you and the rest of Europe knows it.

Is it also a "fact" in your Greek world that when losing an argument people resort to personal remarks ?

You seem to be perfectly aligned to your nation state.

If the troika were so bad to poor little Greece why wouldn't anyone else lend to Greece ? Could it be because no-one trusts your country ? I wonder why...
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  #142  
Old 31.01.2015, 10:48
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Re: Greek elections

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I suppose you're referring to Slovenia and probably Croatia here.

just to put the record straight, Yugoslavia (Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia-Hercegovina, Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia) was NOT in the Eastern Block
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  #143  
Old 31.01.2015, 10:57
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Re: Greek elections

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1) Because Greece is the ONLY country that committed fraud to get into the Euro to access those cheap funds.
2) Because if you borrow money you should pay it back. That's why it's called borrowing and not stealing.
3) The Greeks voted time and again for irresponsible governments. A population gets the government they deserve.


1 & 2 - I agree


but not about pt 3 ---- but Greece, philosophically but not really the cradle of Democracy has never become a working Democracy, but a showplace for ruling tribes/Clans/families like the Papandreou and the Karamanlis --- those who opposed did oppose and many of them emigrated


irresponsible ? NO, responsible to their clan
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  #144  
Old 31.01.2015, 11:04
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Re: Greek elections

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Which facts would those be now ???

You have refused to engage on the fact that the Greek state committed wholesale fraud to join the Euro area , that borrowing without paying back is stealing. Those are facts. Greece has not been saddled with war reparations so comparison with Germany in the 40s is just BS and you and the rest of Europe knows it.

Is it also a "fact" in your Greek world that when losing an argument people resort to personal remarks ?

You seem to be perfectly aligned to your nation state.

If the troika were so bad to poor little Greece why wouldn't anyone else lend to Greece ? Could it be because no-one trusts your country ? I wonder why...

you theoretically are right. BUT all the EU chaps knew the Facts and knew that the distorted b-s provided by the Greek government was rubbish. To have it with Winston Churchill you can cheat everybody for a short while, and you can cheat a few for all the time, but you cannot cheat everybody for all the time --- in short, some People up in ranking got cheated because they wanted to CHEAT


It is obvious that neither Greece nor the Greek sector of Cyprus should have been allowed into the EU, NEVER, but the EU wanted to expand southeast
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  #145  
Old 31.01.2015, 12:07
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Re: Greek elections

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Which facts would those be now ???
If the troika were so bad to poor little Greece why wouldn't anyone else lend to Greece ? Could it be because no-one trusts your country ? I wonder why...
Troika presided over bailing out (private) German and French banks who lent to Greece knowingly betting on such a bail-out. If someone thinks otherwise please listen to the scandalous tapes of the Anglo Irish bank which did also speculate assuming a bailout must happen.
So not only they earned their profit but also made the EU money printing press to get themselves bailed out, and this money is many times more what the banks earned first. So talk about the colossal wast here first.
"Bailing out the Greece" is just a cover up for a massive transfer of wealth from public to (private) banks.
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  #146  
Old 31.01.2015, 12:11
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Re: Greek elections

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It is obvious that neither Greece nor the Greek sector of Cyprus should have been allowed into the EU, NEVER, but the EU wanted to expand southeast
You mean Eurozone. There was little reason for Greece not to be in the EU, but there was and still is a lot of reason for Greece to not be in the Eurozone.

The only way all the southern countries could be in the Euro in a sustainable manner, is with a full-on fiscal integration and -essentially- a federalisation of states.

But people are short-sighted and don't really care about the big picture. Lately all the EU countries are seeing is that on their own they will be just fine, but fail to realise that if it works properly, all together can be a lot better than "fine".




And allow me an example. The EU and the Eurozone are like a group of friends. Now let's say that Greece is an alcoholic. You do an intervention and everybody tells their friend that this has to stop. Obviously the alcoholic doesn't do that because he's an asshole. He does what he does because he's sick.

The answer is not to throw him in a basement without food, water, and light. It's to find a constructive way of helping.



Greece in 2010 were to choose between something very painful and it went in a memorandum. It shouldn't. It should rather fire some 200,000 public servants and cancel the pensions for about 300,000 people that they received from 3 different funds. That and some privatisations would bring the budget back in balance and a memorandum would not be necessary.


But you have a people that was trained for 30+ years that "there is enough money to go around", and a prime minister who's brother (curiously) was betting on credit default swaps of Greece and getting richer and richer with a credit event like the one that was triggered with the start of the bailout.


The troika made a big mistake because you give loans to help liquidity problems, not solvency problems. A bridge loan until a thorough restructure takes place is one thing, but adding on an unsustainable debt the biggest bailout of all time is just idiotic.

Now they won't back down because they're too far in.


Now the Greek output has been destroyed (iterating a fact), people have no jobs, and the population is in shock. They can't see 10 yards in front of them, and that's obvious with neo-nazi parties getting 3rd place.

At the same time, the only people that lost money on Greek debt is the speculating private sector, and Greek pension funds and university endowments on them (the National Technical University of Athens, lost about 20 mil € and couldn't pay staff because its endowment was invested heavily in the publicly run pension fund for engineers that in turn was invested in Greek bonds that ended up with a haircut).

The European tax payer is getting a good return on their loans, the exporting german firms are loving the cheaper Euro, and their economy is growing in a "business as usual" scenario.


There is a lot of blame to go around, and yes Greece should receive a fair amount of grief for a lot of things. But there is a lot more to it than that.




And please keep in mind that since the turn of the century every government is essentially elected with 2 thirds of the voting body against them.
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  #147  
Old 31.01.2015, 12:40
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Re: Greek elections

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Greece has not been saddled with war reparations so comparison with Germany in the 40s is just BS and you and the rest of Europe knows it.
Ok since the troll here continues to post his fascist drivel against countries he doesn't like and after being left speechless once already, let's go for round 2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_oc...e_Great_Famine

"Greece suffered greatly during the occupation.[6][7] The country's economy had already been devastated from the 6-month long war, and to it was added the relentless economic exploitation by the Nazis.[8] Raw materials and food were requisitioned, and the collaborationist government was forced to pay the cost of the occupation, giving rise to inflation. This was further exacerbated by a "war loan" which Greece was forced to grant to the German Reich. This "loan" was never paid back and severely devalued the drachma."

They STOLE that money from us through a gun-in-the-head forced loan after having levelled the whole country and killed huge amounts of the population.

A few years later, all their own debt was forgiven by Uncle Sam and everybody moved on. Every coward out there like France and Switzerland etc kept their lovely Eiffel towers and Zurich lakes while most other countries were brought to their knees and were sent 50 years back into oblivion.

Then a few decades later, it all starts again but this time with no bullets but EURos and a supposing mentality of brotherhood. German companies like Siemens bribed and corrupted their way into government officials, cooked the books along with corrupt politicians to make more and more countries enter the EU and now hold all the power. I blame the people for being stupid enough to fall for their stories but what you suggest is more than idiotic, it's repulsive: that the people themselves committed fraud to cheat other countries from their money.

You really think all other European officials didn't know? All these new countries entering now have true statistics? That is exactly the plan, let everyone in and then you have them where you want. German bunds going negative and Germany gaining billions after billions in exports and low borrowing costs while everyone else is trapped unable to compete and export....put into a visious cycle of debt with more and more loans until they break.

I have already proved to you than everybody is a winner from Greece's debt until this second. They made huge money out of the country and never lost a dime. But you continue your fact-less propaganda.

So now that another ridiculous argument of yours falls apart what will you say? Germany forced a loan on Greece at gunpoint while its own debts were forgiven so they could prosper.

What will it take to accept you are wrong and that neither Italy, Greece or Spain is the enemy here? You are the perfect reader of their propaganda machine, swallowing everything they want you to believe.

Pathetic really.
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  #148  
Old 31.01.2015, 13:03
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Re: Greek elections

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you theoretically are right. BUT all the EU chaps knew the Facts and knew that the distorted b-s provided by the Greek government was rubbish. To have it with Winston Churchill you can cheat everybody for a short while, and you can cheat a few for all the time, but you cannot cheat everybody for all the time --- in short, some People up in ranking got cheated because they wanted to CHEAT


It is obvious that neither Greece nor the Greek sector of Cyprus should have been allowed into the EU, NEVER, but the EU wanted to expand southeast
Sorry... I don't recall there being an election to vote on whether Greece got in - so when you write that "all the EU chaps knew the facts" then as an "EU chap" I'd tend to disagree. Furthermore why would I , prior to 2000 have suspected the Greeks for lying anymore than say the Italians or the Spanish or a citzen of another country suspected the Irish for that matter?

Normally one would expect that the Greek government statistics office to produce accurate and reliable statistics because.... that's their job innit ? The fact that it has come to light not only that they did not but worse charged an honest man with treason for telling the truth would suggest that they have no intentions EVER of playing by the normal rules.

In fact it does seem that not even now is the extent of the Greek fraud known - and worse again there is even now fraud continuing.

Last edited by parnell; 31.01.2015 at 14:03. Reason: Getting link to work
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  #149  
Old 31.01.2015, 13:09
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Re: Greek elections

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Troika presided over bailing out (private) German and French banks who lent to Greece knowingly betting on such a bail-out. If someone thinks otherwise please listen to the scandalous tapes of the Anglo Irish bank which did also speculate assuming a bailout must happen.
So not only they earned their profit but also made the EU money printing press to get themselves bailed out, and this money is many times more what the banks earned first. So talk about the colossal wast here first.
"Bailing out the Greece" is just a cover up for a massive transfer of wealth from public to (private) banks.
Uhh you are so far off base with Anglo Irish Bank - the owner of said bank Sean Quinn is bankrupt , his children scattered to the 4 corners of the earth. The other directors are disgraced figures in Ireland. The bank itself is in permanent administration - far from "earning their profit"....

Furthermore the EU did not bail them out - the Irish taxpayer did - and rightly so - because - and this is something that you seem to be having a hard time with - a loan carries with it an obligation to repay. That is why Irish debt is now so cheap and Greek debt so expensive.
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  #150  
Old 31.01.2015, 13:17
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Re: Greek elections

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You seem to know a lot about this, so please get your stuff together and go to the police or the newspapers. Corruption is a crime, help the state procecute the corruptor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/bu...anted=all&_r=0
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  #151  
Old 31.01.2015, 13:32
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Re: Greek elections

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Ok since the troll here continues to post his fascist drivel against countries he doesn't like and after being left speechless once already, let's go for round 2.
Do you think you could possibly refrain from the personal attacks ? I have not done that to you but yet you have done it twice now. Apart from everything else it is against forum rules and makes your arguments appear even less solid.
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  #152  
Old 31.01.2015, 13:35
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Re: Greek elections

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The European tax payer is getting a good return on their loans, the exporting german firms are loving the cheaper Euro, and their economy is growing in a "business as usual" scenario.


There is a lot of blame to go around, and yes Greece should receive a fair amount of grief for a lot of things. But there is a lot more to it than that.
Greece borrows at 4% from the troika , yet the value of the bonds suggest the fair value should be closer to 12%. What is more the newly installed government says that it will not return the principal.How is that a good return ?
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  #153  
Old 31.01.2015, 13:57
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Re: Greek elections

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You seem to know a lot about this, so please get your stuff together and go to the police or the newspapers. Corruption is a crime, help the state procecute the corruptor.
I can very well believe it, many companies have done it and not only or especially German...But it's ironic they come from countries who otherwise criticise corruption...

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Uhh you are so far off base with Anglo Irish Bank - the owner of said bank Sean Quinn is bankrupt , his children scattered to the 4 corners of the earth. The other directors are disgraced figures in Ireland. The bank itself is in permanent administration - far from "earning their profit"....

Furthermore the EU did not bail them out - the Irish taxpayer did - and rightly so - because - and this is something that you seem to be having a hard time with - a loan carries with it an obligation to repay. That is why Irish debt is now so cheap and Greek debt so expensive.
You don't really believe that, do you? Greece apart.

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just to put the record straight, Yugoslavia (Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia-Hercegovina, Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia) was NOT in the Eastern Block
They weren't part of the Warsaw Pact, true.
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  #154  
Old 31.01.2015, 14:20
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Re: Greek elections

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You mean Eurozone. There was little reason for Greece not to be in the EU, but there was and still is a lot of reason for Greece to not be in the Eurozone.
-
The main reason was that Greece still was and is involved in the Cyprus matter. It was Greece who lured some Colonels in Nicosia into the toppling of President Makarious III and into the Enosis adventure. -The EU otherwise always declares not to be open for countries with unresolved political issues



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Greece in 2010 were to choose between something very painful and it went in a memorandum. It shouldn't. It should rather fire some 200,000 public servants and cancel the pensions for about 300,000 people that they received from 3 different funds. That and some privatisations would bring the budget back in balance and a memorandum would not be necessary.
-
but those 500'000 persons are needed for the next elections







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The European tax payer is getting a good return on their loans, the exporting german firms are loving the cheaper Euro, and their economy is growing in a "business as usual" scenario.

yes, and if the EU succeeds in getting Greece out of shit again, it will be good Business for all. Greece is smaller than Berlin-Brandenburg or Greater Paris incl Suburbia or Greater London incl Suburbia, and so nicely reachable





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And please keep in mind that since the turn of the century every government is essentially elected with 2 thirds of the voting body against them.

This is simply not true. Great coalitions like the one in Switzerland are backed by 60% of the voting body in their favour
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  #155  
Old 31.01.2015, 19:28
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Re: Greek elections

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I can very well believe it, many companies have done it and not only or especially German...
My message was sarcastic, (and misunderstood as always), because it was analysed in depth in the media but it does not make a legal case. So why corruption does not come to the judges in Greece, I don't know, but it can't only be the super powers of the Germans.

I actually don't blame the Greeks for anything, but any argumentation with "Nazi" will be discarded by the Germans of today. It is a very good argument to gather the troops against Germans as symbol for EU strict austerity policy, but it is not an argument to actually discuss anything. I don't blame Greeks for taking care of their interests.... at all. I do however recognize a fallatious point in an argument that might otherwise be perfectly legitimate.
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  #156  
Old 31.01.2015, 21:01
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Re: Greek elections

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This is simply not true. Great coalitions like the one in Switzerland are backed by 60% of the voting body in their favour
Sorry, every government in Greece. Forgot to put that in

Just arguing that although a big chunk of the people want a job in the public sector and to hell with the rest (whoever might they be), there are a lot more that have reason. The problem is that this "occupation army" as my father calls it, is still a critical mass that can't be overthrown.
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  #157  
Old 01.02.2015, 14:53
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Re: Greek elections

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Sorry... I don't recall there being an election to vote on whether Greece got in - so when you write that "all the EU chaps knew the facts" then as an "EU chap" I'd tend to disagree. Furthermore why would I , prior to 2000 have suspected the Greeks for lying anymore than say the Italians or the Spanish or a citzen of another country suspected the Irish for that matter?

Normally one would expect that the Greek government statistics office to produce accurate and reliable statistics because.... that's their job innit ? The fact that it has come to light not only that they did not but worse charged an honest man with treason for telling the truth would suggest that they have no intentions EVER of playing by the normal rules.

In fact it does seem that not even now is the extent of the Greek fraud known - and worse again there is even now fraud continuing.

There were votes in the European Parliament and in the European Commission. And again according to EU rules, countries with unresolved international disputes are not allowed to join. And Greek Cyprus with the Support of Greece in 1974 went for ENOSIS in clear violation of the Treaty of Zürich of 1960 . And they toppled democratically elected President Archbishop Makarios III . This was the start of the still pending conflict. While the Turkish Cypriots in various votes opted for compromise, the Greek-Cypriot electorate repeatedly rejected compromise
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  #158  
Old 01.02.2015, 22:50
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Re: Greek elections

I understand that self-righteous people find it very easy to believe that the Greek government lied in order to get admitted to the Eurozone (and thus the Greek people suffering is a justified punishment), however the facts beg to differ.
In 2004 Greece got a new conservative government who desperately wanted to prove that the previous socialist government had done a bad job. Basically they applied a new methodology for the years before 2000 in order to make the budget deficit appear to be above 3%, and after all their creative accounting they managed to bring it up to a pathetic 3.07%.
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Instead, the government produced new estimates while investigating the years 1997 - 2003, and the resulting data was given to Eurostat, which then went on and published a report.[9] The requirement that the 1999 budget deficit should have been below 3% of GDP was one of the key criteria for Eurozone entry; thus, its revision to 3.1%, The precise figure was actually 3.07%, according to Eurostat (AMECO), led to a controversy about Greece's admission.
Most of the differences in the revised numbers were due to a temporary change of accounting practices by the new government, i.e., recording expenses when military material was ordered rather than received. However, it was the retroactive application of ESA95 methodology (applied since 2000) for the years 1997-1999 by Eurostat, that finally led to a reference year budget deficit of 3.07% of GDP in 1999, leading to claims that Greece had not actually met all the accession criteria.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_F...al_Audit,_2004
Good luck digesting the facts.
I'm not a big fan of the Greek Socialist party, but everybody admits that what brought us where we are today is the conservative government of 2004-2009.
Greece had an excellent prime minister between 1996 and 2004 who, despite the Socialist party being full of useless (at best) and dishonest (at worst) populist politicians, managed to keep the situation more or less under control. One of the party's most senior members of that period is in jail right now, but that's it basically (and he deserves to die there).


In fact there is nothing wrong with Greece joining the euro.
What is wrong is what happened in Greece after joining the euro (the 2004-2009 period).
Of course this is no excuse for the Greeks. They should not have brought the conservatives to power.
In any event, crying over spilt milk is pointless. We need to move on based on what we can do now.
So now I absolutely support a GREXIT (combined with refusing to pay back any debt until we have taken care of our poorest citizens first).

Furthermore, I would like to point out that Greece is forced to keep huge numbers of illegal immigrants because it stupidly agreed to the Dublin II Regulation. It's so easy for Sweden or Germany to decide how many asylum seekers they're going to receive every year while the South has to take care of the rest of them.
Greece should unilaterally pull out of the Dublin II agreement and let all asylum seekers take flights to Brussels, Munich, London, Stockholm and ask for asylum there.
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  #159  
Old 01.02.2015, 23:11
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Re: Greek elections

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I understand that self-righteous people find it very easy to believe that the Greek government lied in order to get admitted to the Eurozone (and thus the Greek people suffering is a justified punishment), however the facts beg to differ.
In 2004 Greece got a new conservative government who desperately wanted to prove that the previous socialist government had done a bad job. Basically they applied a new methodology for the years before 2000 in order to make the budget deficit appear to be above 3%, and after all their creative accounting they managed to bring it up to a pathetic 3.07%.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_F...al_Audit,_2004
Good luck digesting the facts.
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When the crisis began, ELSTAT was part of the Ministry of Finance. At the time, Greek figures almost always carried a footnote in European statements to indicate that Eurostat had been unable to verify whether they had been established independently and in accordance with the applicable regulations. Since 2004, the European statistics agency had sent 10 delegations to Athens with a view to improving the reliability of Greek figures, but apparently to no avail. In January 2010, it issued damning report which contained accusations of falsified data and political interference.

From the moment that Mr Georgiou was placed in charge of the Greek statistics agency, which was subsequently named ELSTAT and separated from the Ministry of Finance, the footnotes disappeared. The past five six-monthly reports have received a green light from Eurostat, which is tantamount to an administrative revolution. However, the turnaround has not gained Mr Georgiou any friends at home. No politicians want to be seen with him, nor are they even prepared to publicly defend him. In fact, political chat shows on domestic radio and TV have even dubbed him a traitor who deserves to go to the scaffold.
Now do you really believe that entry to the Euro was not fraudulent ?
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  #160  
Old 02.02.2015, 01:30
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Re: Greek elections

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Ok since the troll here continues to post his fascist drivel against countries he doesn't like and after being left speechless once already, let's go for round 2.
This is unwarranted. In fact, your ad hominem plays undermine your own credibility. The user of slander usually is the one who's lost the argument, he just hasn't acknowledged yet - much like Wile E Coyote after having run off a cliff.

Last edited by Urs Max; 02.02.2015 at 01:54.
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