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  #161  
Old 02.02.2015, 01:34
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Re: Greek elections

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My message was sarcastic, (and misunderstood as always), because it was analysed in depth in the media but it does not make a legal case. So why corruption does not come to the judges in Greece, I don't know, but it can't only be the super powers of the Germans.

I actually don't blame the Greeks for anything, but any argumentation with "Nazi" will be discarded by the Germans of today. It is a very good argument to gather the troops against Germans as symbol for EU strict austerity policy, but it is not an argument to actually discuss anything. I don't blame Greeks for taking care of their interests.... at all. I do however recognize a fallatious point in an argument that might otherwise be perfectly legitimate.
I also don't agree with the Nazi thing, that's over the top. Truth to be told you can't live on loans for ever, there's a need for investments, jobs (jobs that will produce some revenue to the budget). That's the problem.
As far as my country goes fighting corruption is crucial (yeah, we're still at that level)and I'm glad the EC will continue to monitor the independence of justice...it's for the best, we still have a clique of ex-commies who need to be hold accountable....A proper spring cleaning we're all waiting for.
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  #162  
Old 02.02.2015, 20:18
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Re: Greek elections

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I've seen posts claiming the following:

1) Commercial ship owners (or shipping agencies, not sure which it was) are not taxed, this privilege is even supposed to be part of the greek constitution.

2) Tons of loopholes in the tax system. For instance, a new house goes completely untaxed until it's officially 100% finished. So the owner artificially leaves a few very minor parts incomplete, for many years (10-20-30 years or even more), and thus goes untaxed.

Unfortunately I see no way I could verify this myself, but maybe the greek speaking people can shed some light (preferably including source) - is that true? If only partially true, what is the actual situation? Or not true at all?

how is #1 different than the government subsidised swiss farms and mountain way of life?

how is #2 different than not completing your swiss mortgage for 100 years so that you dont pay taxes on the house you own?
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  #163  
Old 02.02.2015, 20:34
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Re: Greek elections

the worst outcome of this ordeal is Greece leaving the EU, going down the road to nationalism/faschism and further economic crisis, ultimately starting a war against... (make a guess!)

for me, the real value of EU is that it has prevented major wars in Europe for 70 years (except the Bosnian war, which the EU should be ashamed of). Greece exiting EU can bring back the war, not a good outcome for the entire region. Therefore, the Germans should just bite the bullet and pick the tab, and hopefully help Greece to reform its institutions.

ze Germans should stop whining too! The current pains in the PIGS countries is party their doing, and they benefited immensely from this zero-sum European game.
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  #164  
Old 02.02.2015, 21:14
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Re: Greek elections

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the worst outcome of this ordeal is Greece leaving the EU, going down the road to nationalism/faschism and further economic crisis, ultimately starting a war against... (make a guess!)
.
Against whom could the expansionist Greece start a war?

If you think of Turkey:

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  #165  
Old 02.02.2015, 21:17
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Re: Greek elections

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Against whom could the expansionist Greece start a war?

http://www.smh.com.au/world/new-gree...31-132mvy.html

"Athens: Greece's new nationalist defence minister prompted Greece's perennial rival Turkey to scramble jets on Friday, just days after he took office, by flying over uninhabited islets off the Turkish coast that nearly triggered a war in 1996.

Turkish fighter jets entered Greek airspace and were intercepted by Greek jets as Defence Minister Panos Kammenos and military chiefs flew by helicopter to the islet of Imia to drop wreaths in memory of three Greek officers killed nearby in a helicopter crash 19 years ago, the Greek Defence Ministry said."
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  #166  
Old 02.02.2015, 21:24
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Re: Greek elections

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Against whom could the expansionist Greece start a war?
Yeah! What's the big idea?!

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for me, the real value of EU is that it has prevented major wars in Europe for 70 years
I suspect you're confusing the EU with NATO. Except, of course, when NATO are actually starting the wars...
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  #167  
Old 02.02.2015, 21:35
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Re: Greek elections

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Yeah! What's the big idea?!
I doubted that this scenario is plausible.
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  #168  
Old 02.02.2015, 22:30
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Re: Greek elections

The greeks have always been part of Europe. They fought just as hard, if not harder than anybody in resisting the krauts during WWII. In conceptualizing the EU, they were intended members just as much as any other country. The idea of whether or not they should have been included was not even up to anybody in particular, or to some vote or policy.

The whole idea of a union is to leverage strengths all across the union, and to mitigate weaknesses. So if you have an EU that will throw the weak under the bus, then it really won't be lasting very long anyway. Because at some point or another, each country will have their strong moments, and weak their moments. If they don't have solid principles to balance these out, there will be nobody left after one cycle of history. Spain is likely up next, followed by Italy or Portugal It would be funny if the Germans are the only one left in the end.
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  #169  
Old 02.02.2015, 22:45
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Re: Greek elections

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The greeks have always been part of Europe.
lol, no.
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  #170  
Old 02.02.2015, 23:37
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Re: Greek elections

We do know it has not floated around to other continents since Pangea and is on the European continent. Sure it has been annexed into various empires. But it is european even in its eclecticism. Even more so, it laid the foundation for what is considered western civilization. Someone can say Greeks are Turks, or something stupid like that. I think if they had a referendum to choose between Turkey, Russia or Western Europe, they would overwhelming decide they are Europeans.
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  #171  
Old 02.02.2015, 23:46
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Re: Greek elections

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We do know it has not floated around to other continents since Pangea and is on the European continent. Sure it has been annexed into various empires. But it is european even in its eclecticism. Even more so, it laid the foundation for what is considered western civilization. Someone can say Greeks are Turks, or something stupid like that. I think if they had a referendum to choose between Turkey, Russia or Western Europe, they would overwhelming decide they are Europeans.
You should study some Greek history. It's interesting.
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  #172  
Old 02.02.2015, 23:55
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Re: Greek elections

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You should study some Greek history. It's interesting.
I love the greek classics. But anything after and until WWII kinda bores me.
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  #173  
Old 03.02.2015, 00:36
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Re: Greek elections

The austerity plan is a huge waterfall project that is destined to fail. In order for Greece to come through, they need an agile approach. They need to develop the tools and language to implement Agile. A question is whether Tsipras would make a good scrum master, and the EU an appropriate Product Owner.

Had this exact same conversation with a customer recently.
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  #174  
Old 03.02.2015, 00:36
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Re: Greek elections

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Yeah! What's the big idea?!
I suspect you're confusing the EU with NATO. Except, of course, when NATO are actually starting the wars...
I think I should sue you. NATO are a defense coalition, by definition they are unable to wage war

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how is #1 different than the government subsidised swiss farms and mountain way of life?

how is #2 different than not completing your swiss mortgage for 100 years so that you dont pay taxes on the house you own?
#1 CH pay their bills themselves
#2 CH pay their bills themselves. And no, the mortgage amount doesn't affect the tax you pay on the house itself.

Your attack clearly implies that my questions hit a nerve. I find that ver telling as I asked a question, I didn't accuse or any such. Does that mean these points still persist? And if yes, how many more loopholes are there?

EU is not the pacemaker or pathmaker of peace, it's the other way round: EU formation required peace and still does. Without many decennials of peace EU would not have been possible.
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  #175  
Old 03.02.2015, 12:02
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Re: Greek elections

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I love the greek classics. But anything after and until WWII kinda bores me.

You're missing all the best stuff.


But the point is that saying that the Greeks have always been part of Europe is like saying that the Germans have always been peace loving and cultured or that the Americans have always valued equality and freedom.


Cherry picking is all very well, but it doesn't really give an accurate picture of history.


In a nutshell: if it ain't Catholic (Roman or Reformed), it ain't European.


HTH
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  #176  
Old 03.02.2015, 12:47
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Re: Greek elections

DB is right - http://www.gallup.com/poll/181460/gr...eadership.aspx
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  #177  
Old 03.02.2015, 12:51
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Re: Greek elections

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In a nutshell: if it ain't Catholic (Roman or Reformed), it ain't European.


HTH
It's Eurotrash.

DB, the big absence from European history handbooks is the history of Byzantine Empire. Why? It's funny that everyone talks about laicity nowadays and forgets about the Catholic Church and the reasons for the Great Schism...

Last edited by greenmount; 03.02.2015 at 13:19.
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  #178  
Old 03.02.2015, 13:24
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Re: Greek elections

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DB, the big absence from European history handbooks is the history of Byzantine Empire. Why?

Because the history of Europe after the fall of Rome is basically the history of the Roman Church and her daughters. Anything south and east of the Danube is "the other": first the sodomites and heretics of the Orthodox Church, later the wicked Turk. The borders were fluid, of course, with Latin possessions scattered all over the Eastern Med till the Turks cleaned up in the 16th and 17th centuries, but the three way cultural split goes back at least a millennium (I've even seen it argued that it goes back to classical times) and shows no sign of abating even now.


Greece isn't Europe and hasn't been for a very, very long time. Neither, if the truth be told, is anywhere in the Balkans apart from the Romish bits. Their story is a fascinating story, but it isn't a European story.


Even Lord Byron worked that one out, about a week before he dropped dead, bless his silken socks!
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  #179  
Old 03.02.2015, 13:48
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Re: Greek elections

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Because the history of Europe after the fall of Rome is basically the history of the Roman Church and her daughters. Anything south and east of the Danube is "the other": first the sodomites and heretics of the Orthodox Church, later the wicked Turk. The borders were fluid, of course, with Latin possessions scattered all over the Eastern Med till the Turks cleaned up in the 16th and 17th centuries, but the three way cultural split goes back at least a millennium (I've even seen it argued that it goes back to classical times) and shows no sign of abating even now.
By its own present definitions and ideals, that "true Europe" hasn't exactly been part of itself all this time, for sure..

The thing is, it does sound strange to contest Greece' "Europeness"...for many other reasons.

Last edited by greenmount; 03.02.2015 at 14:33.
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  #180  
Old 03.02.2015, 14:46
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Re: Greek elections

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EU is not the pacemaker or pathmaker of peace, it's the other way round: EU formation required peace and still does. Without many decennials of peace EU would not have been possible.
Yes, this point is often misunderstood and people erroneously believe that the EU led to peace and therefore elimination of the EU will end peace. Wrong in both premise and logic.
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