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  #41  
Old 28.01.2015, 12:59
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

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Personally I find the term "white" offensive. Only ghosts are depicted as white.

"White" people in South Africa are called by the indigenous folk there "mLungas" - which means a "white slug without a shell" - from the time these strangely "white" humans emerged from their "shells" which were sailing ships.

The name has persisted, without most "white" people being aware of its meaning so no offence is ever taken. It`s just a term referring to people of non-black ancestry.
Seeing everybody originally came from Africa [*], it's a bit tricky to define non-black ancestry.

* footnote: I did once jokingly mention the fact to a Ghanan I was talking to in a bar and he strictly denied there being any truth to this theory. So I don't want to step on the toes of anybody entertaining alternative theories.
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  #42  
Old 28.01.2015, 13:12
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

If focusing on things people have in common leads to friendlier and more positive relationships between individuals and groups, why does the PC crowd insist on using terms that emphasize people's differences?
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  #43  
Old 28.01.2015, 13:14
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

I also read this yesterday which i found interesting
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ping?CMP=fb_gu

particularly:
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This ideology is very popular – like a racial utopic version of the Golden Rule – but it’s actually quite racist. “Colorblindness” doesn’t acknowledge the very real ways in which racism has existed and continues to exist, both in individuals and systemically. By professing not to see race, you’re just ignoring racism, not solving it.

Still, the idea of “colorblindness” is incredibly popular, especially with young people who believe racism is a problem for the older generation and will soon die out. According to a 2014 study done in partnership with MTV and David Binder Research, almost three-fourths of millennials believe that we should not see the color of someone’s skin, as though it’s a choice. Nearly 70% believe they have achieved this and are now actually colorblind; and the same percentage shockingly believe that we make society better by not seeing race or ethnicity.
As I am probably guilty of this.
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  #44  
Old 28.01.2015, 13:16
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

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Personally I find the term "white" offensive. ...
Ah, shut up, big nose round-eyes.
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Who is 485????
Me, if I spend more than 30.5 seconds in the sun.
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  #45  
Old 28.01.2015, 13:17
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

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I also read this yesterday which i found interesting
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ping?CMP=fb_gu




As I am probably guilty of this.
What, reading the Guardian?
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  #46  
Old 28.01.2015, 13:26
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

I feel like this conversation is far more complicated than it needs to be. If a member (or the majority of members) of a minority prefer to be referred to be specific term, then I think that's the term that should be used.

As am American, when I talk with someone who is black and the topic of race comes up, I just ask what term they use. It makes things pretty easy. Alternatively, I just listen to hear what term they use themself.

I think complaining about a change in terminology is kind of insensitive, when it is directly related to a history of racism - especially given what's been happening at home this year. How hard is it to refer to someone the way they would like to be referred to?

And the term mentioned earlier is "people of color" not just "of color". It refers collectively to blacks, Asians, Latinos, South Asians, Native Americans, etc. It's not really a term about skin color, but rather a term indicating solidarity between minorities that can be easily identified by not looking white.
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  #47  
Old 28.01.2015, 13:32
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

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I also read this yesterday which i found interesting
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ping?CMP=fb_gu

particularly:


As I am probably guilty of this.
What exactly does it mean to "not see the color of someone’s skin, as though it’s a choice"?

Redaing that made me so warm and fuzzy that I almost took out a subscription for The Guardian.
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  #48  
Old 28.01.2015, 13:39
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

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I feel like this conversation is far more complicated than it needs to be. If a member (or the majority of members) of a minority prefer to be referred to be specific term, then I think that's the term that should be used.

As am American, when I talk with someone who is black and the topic of race comes up, I just ask what term they use. It makes things pretty easy. Alternatively, I just listen to hear what term they use themself.
That's a pretty complicated solution, IMHO. You mean, you can't comment until you've had an opportunity to determine the desired terms of the discussion (I'm assuming you don't limit this principle solely to terms regarding race)? I think that's incredibly cumbersome.



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I think complaining about a change in terminology is kind of insensitive, when it is directly related to a history of racism - especially given what's been happening at home this year. How hard is it to refer to someone the way they would like to be referred to?
Most of the time it isn't terribly hard, but, of course, there are a few who go out of their way to make it difficult for others. I mean, I could ask people to call me an Anglo-Welsh-Scots-Irish-Dutch-German-Native-American, but that's pure numbskullery, IMO. I would prefer to examine the message in totality and make my judgement then.

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And the term mentioned earlier is "people of color" not just "of color". It refers collectively to blacks, Asians, Latinos, South Asians, Native Americans, etc. It's not really a term about skin color, but rather a term indicating solidarity between minorities that can be easily identified by not looking white.
But white is the presence of all colors, right? I think the phrase "people of color," is used to be inclusive of all races, and not exclusive of "white" people.
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  #49  
Old 28.01.2015, 13:47
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

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I would much prefer the terms dark skinned or light skinned etc. At least then it is clear that we are only talking about skin colour and don't throw random parts of the population in the "black" or "white" pots.
Are they not just synonyms for "Black" and "White" (still totally ignoring shades in between - is "coloured" actually more inclusive?).

Any connations people hold about "Black" and "White" people will still be there if you call them "dark skinned" and "light skinned" (or "Q130" and "ALR"). Changing a word isn't going to help either way; in the long term the new work is going to drag its baggage with it.
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  #50  
Old 28.01.2015, 13:54
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

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That's a pretty complicated solution, IMHO. You mean, you can't comment until you've had an opportunity to determine the desired terms of the discussion (I'm assuming you don't limit this principle solely to terms regarding race)? I think that's incredibly cumbersome.
I'm not really telling anyone if or how to comment. I just know that the subject is touchy for a number of black people - including some friends whose opinions I value. You can choose to be sensitive to an issue or not. The choice is yours.

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Most of the time it isn't terribly hard, but, of course, there are a few who go out of their way to make it difficult for others. I mean, I could ask people to call me an Anglo-Welsh-Scots-Irish-Dutch-German-Native-American, but that's pure numbskullery, IMO. I would prefer to examine the message in totality and make my judgement then.
Again, the choice is yours. The thought that people are trying to inconvenience you by asking to be referred to in a more dignified way seems a bit selfish to me, though.

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But white is the presence of all colors, right? I think the phrase "people of color," is used to be inclusive of all races, and not exclusive of "white" people.
On this one, you're just wrong. --> "Person of color (plural: people of color, persons of color) is a term used primarily in the United States to describe any person who is not white. The term encompasses all non-white groups, emphasizing common experiences of racism. The term is not equivalent in use to "colored", previously used in the US as a term for African Americans only."
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  #51  
Old 28.01.2015, 13:59
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

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Are they not just synonyms for "Black" and "White" (still totally ignoring shades in between - is "coloured" actually more inclusive?).

Any connations people hold about "Black" and "White" people will still be there if you call them "dark skinned" and "light skinned" (or "Q130" and "ALR"). Changing a word isn't going to help either way; in the long term the new work is going to drag its baggage with it.
Couldn't think of better example than changing the historical "gypsy", for an ethnic/cultural minority, with "Roma" - across the Balkans, Eastern and Central Europe. And then the whole Europe. (based on some linguistics argument, even though there are more "tribes" all mixed up under the same name)
Back home TV channels, newspapers get fined for not using the "proper" term to describe someone of this ethnicity/culture, even though many gypsies call themselves gypsies and don't have a problem with that.
Although I admit the main idea was good, to promote anti-discrimination policies etc. But all remained at this level, changing a word and not actually doing much against discrimination/racism. Same for the rest of the Europe where gypsies are an ethnic/cultural minority for centuries, or for those who have seen gypsy migrants only lately...(allegedly)

Last edited by greenmount; 29.01.2015 at 12:33.
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  #52  
Old 28.01.2015, 14:15
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

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I'm not really telling anyone if or how to comment. I just know that the subject is touchy for a number of black people - including some friends whose opinions I value. You can choose to be sensitive to an issue or not. The choice is yours.
Oops, you just called them all "black." Did you check that this was okay first? Do you not see the PC-paralysis you're creating in the name of sensitivity?


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Again, the choice is yours. The thought that people are trying to inconvenience you by asking to be referred to in a more dignified way seems a bit selfish to me, though.
Yes, the choice is mine. I never said I was inconvenienced; I just pointed out how it can become a bit silly and overwrought. But, yes, there are people who will use mechanisms like this to manipulate discussions to gain advantage over others.


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On this one, you're just wrong. --> "Person of color (plural: people of color, persons of color) is a term used primarily in the United States to describe any person who is not white. The term encompasses all non-white groups, emphasizing common experiences of racism. The term is not equivalent in use to "colored", previously used in the US as a term for African Americans only."
To clarify, I said what I was thinking, not necessarily what the US government defines the term as. Further, this just supports my point of the US government trying to fix a bad idea by creating an equally bad idea in the other direction, and hoping it washes.
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  #53  
Old 28.01.2015, 14:53
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

So to clarify: Is it pikey or gypo?
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  #54  
Old 28.01.2015, 14:56
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

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So to clarify: Is it pikey or gypo?
Flip a coin?
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  #55  
Old 28.01.2015, 14:59
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

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Flip a coin?
Eeny,_meeny,_miny,_moe ??

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  #56  
Old 28.01.2015, 14:59
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

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So to clarify: Is it pikey or gypo?
What's that in Pantone numbers?
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  #57  
Old 28.01.2015, 15:11
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

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So to clarify: Is it pikey or gypo?
All gypos are pikeys, but not all pikeys are gypos.
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  #58  
Old 28.01.2015, 15:11
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

Back when the first black family moved into our neighborhood (house next to ours, early '70s), I recall asking the mother what term SHE preferred that one use, and she said 'colored'.

Tom
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Old 28.01.2015, 15:13
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

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Seeing everybody originally came from Africa [*], it's a bit tricky to define non-black ancestry.

* footnote: I did once jokingly mention the fact to a Ghanan I was talking to in a bar and he strictly denied there being any truth to this theory. So I don't want to step on the toes of anybody entertaining alternative theories.
South Africa was only occupied by the San people (small yellow people - *yellow*? Yes, yellow, not black and not white or coloured - their skin had a yellowish caste) and I guess they`d be pretty insulted to be called "yellow" people.

The white-ish slugs originally arrived from Europe in ships.
The very dark indigenous African races were travelling southwards and met up with the invaders from Europe somewhere quite high up to the present inland border of SA. Both nearly anhialated the San who escaped into the deserts and mountains to survive.

Both the arriving dark indigenous African races and the fairly new arriving Europeans have since settled South Africa. Both were invaders of a (virtually) empty piece of country. Inadvertantly arriving at the same time in their exploring.

The theory that all mankind stemmed from Africa is based on blood group types I believe? "O" blood group being the "oldest", with "A" next and so on, branching out to Europe and then to middle eastern countries?

Everyone can receive blood from the O group (being the original), but O blood group people cannot receive any of the "later/newer" blood groups... the A, B, AB)
(Indigenous African folk mainly in the O group - mixed now due to inter-breeding with other groups, but still dominant)
All this *blood group" theory is dredged from memory of books read, maybe wrong, maybe right.
Please don`t shoot me.
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Old 28.01.2015, 15:35
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch race terminology discussion

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I've always known that only embarassing old people would use "coloured", it used to be the preferred term a long time ago but it has been deemed inappropriate/offensive at least since I was born in the 80s. So, I remember being shocked the first time I heard an American TV presenter say "of color" as I thought it was basically the same thing. I assumed the presenter was ignorant and wondered why none of the audience seemed to look offended, but I heard it again and again after that, only on American TV though. Never heard it in England. I deduced that in the US it's not appropriate any more to use "black".

Given the context of what he was talking about I'm inclined to think he meant to say "of color".

American EF-ers, is it offensive/inappropriate in the US to say "black"?

Also what is the the preferred term used here??
I can't answer for the rest of the US, but in the south east, aka The Bible Belt, aka Dixie, the term "black" is still very much in use. The people in the south are still very much resistant to all things Yankee, including political correctness. (Politicians are the only ones who are expected to "mind their tongue"). In the south you got your blacks, your whites, your Mexicans, which refers to all Latinos, your Asians and your Ay-rabs. People think Switzerland is racist? They should check out Alabama.

Also, I descend from Native Americans and we don't use that term, nor do we use Indian. We use the specific name of our tribe. I say, for example, that my Nana is Cherokee and my granddad is Wyandot. And here is a picture of my wonderful grandparents just because y'all have got me thinking about them!
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