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  #121  
Old 05.02.2015, 11:10
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

I find it a bit disturbing how short people's memories are, or (perhaps more accurately) how willing they are to deliberately forget inconvenient stuff.


The links between Western intelligence services and Islamic extremists are not the stuff of conspiracy theories. They are perfectly well known and have been for at least 35 years. I was still a kid in 1980, but I remember very well how the Mujahidin were presented on the evening news and how our governments supported them. I also remember how the war in Syria was being reported a couple of years ago, and who the goodies and the baddies were supposed to be. I also remember what happened in Libya. It was all very recent, yet you'd think these things happened a thousand years ago.


It is hardly David Icke territory to suggest that contacts made and maintained over the last 35 years might still, you know, possibly have something to do with the mayhem in the Levant. As Mr Icke himself asks, in his rare moments of not-batshit-craziness, "who benefits from these actions?". He's got a point - I can't see Muslims benefiting from the rise of ISIS or the murders of a bunch of cartoonists and people shopping for bagels. I can, however, see plenty of authoritarian bastards, troublemakers, moneymakers and government centralisers benefiting from it.


We are being bombarded with bullshit - it isn't even consistent bullshit - and we're eating it up like Nutella from a tablespoon. Why? Is it too disturbing to acknowledge that our bastards might possibly be just as bad as their bastards? That our bastards and their bastards are actually on the same side?


Sometimes I wish I didn't read about history. I'd spend a lot less time despairing at the state of the world if I didn't know exactly how the story goes again and again and again and again and again and again.


I'm off to dig in my garden...
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  #122  
Old 05.02.2015, 11:19
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

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. . .
As I recall, the key points of persuasion were:
Vietnam - To halt the Red Menace.
Afghanistan - They harbored International (9/11) terrorists.
Iraq - He gassed his own people.

None of which is false.
. .
Vietnam: Ah. Yes.The Red Menace. Unparalleled barbarity which had to be stopped. http://www.people.com/article/nick-u...photo-kim-phuc

Afghanistan: You mean of course the Mujahideen Freedom fighters who were nurtured, financed and armed by the West, through Saudi Arabia, to counter Soviet expansion in Afghanistan, and who went on to destroy a couple of buildings in Manhattan. Our friends .

Iraq: You mean, of course, through the gassing campaign which was fully supported by the CIA http://www.counterpunch.org/2004/06/...mical-weapons/ ( because they were, of course, our friends )
The rational that American Secretary of Defense had for attacking Iraq was somewhat simpler: "There are no good targets in Afghanistan"
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  #123  
Old 05.02.2015, 11:25
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

Here is a pretty well written and reasoned piece of Conspiracy Theory on the rise of ISIS.
As DB mentioned, always ask the question 'who has the most to gain' and 'who has the most to lose'?
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  #124  
Old 05.02.2015, 11:29
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

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I'm off to dig in my garden...
If you have anything like the 4 degrees of frost we have here, it will be tough going, but probably still easier than trying to have a rational discussion on the EF
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  #125  
Old 05.02.2015, 11:47
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

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We are being bombarded with bullshit - it isn't even consistent bullshit - and we're eating it up like Nutella from a tablespoon. Why? Is it too disturbing to acknowledge that our bastards might possibly be just as bad as their bastards? That our bastards and their bastards are actually on the same side?
So what are you prescribing?

I think you can draw various kinds of dichotomies to show that any two groups are on the "same side". That is easy to do with some intellectual freedom to define "sides". You can do it by race, sex, religion, culture, politic interests, or even their favorite soft drinks if you'd like. The dichotomy that offends me most are between those who are heavily armed slaughtering those who are defenceless. I do think people should rise in defence of defenceless Muslims, as well as defenceless Christians, Yazidis and atheists. It is normal to be outraged by it, and it does not imply that one is manipulated bot. It means they still have some empathy and compassion for those and any other people suffering in such situations. Did you have a better reaction that people should take on that is to your approval?
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  #126  
Old 05.02.2015, 12:41
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

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The dichotomy that offends me most are between those who are heavily armed slaughtering those who are defenceless.
When it suits, naturally.


Like everyone else, you pick and choose what you'd like to take offence at and what you'd like to ignore.


... with quite a lot of help from the press dept of the White House, of course.
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  #127  
Old 05.02.2015, 12:48
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

well we could all stand up and say enough, but then we'd have to pay the real price for petrol, food, holidays, iphones etc etc and that seems too high a price for most people, so I'm off to bury my head in the sand again
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  #128  
Old 05.02.2015, 12:53
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

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. . . I do think people should rise in defence of defenceless Muslims, as well as defenceless Christians, Yazidis and atheists. . . .
One positive step towards rising in defence of the defenceless would be to openly condemn those who are financing, arming and generally supporting the aggressors and their sponsors.
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  #129  
Old 05.02.2015, 13:31
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

No doubt that in any given situation, no matter how tragic, there will be someone trying to capitalize on the opportunity for their own benefit. They'll sell you a t-shirt if they can. But I'm not convinced you can automatically equate that to the cause though.
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  #130  
Old 05.02.2015, 13:36
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

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No doubt that in any given situation, no matter how tragic, there will be someone trying to capitalize on the opportunity for their own benefit. They'll sell you a t-shirt if they can. But I'm not convinced you can automatically equate that to the cause though.

So, after each incident where Western intelligence worked in collaboration with local militia they said "thanks, chaps. Toodle-pip!" and broke off all contact? You really believe that?
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  #131  
Old 05.02.2015, 13:48
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

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So, after each incident where Western intelligence worked in collaboration with local militia they said "thanks, chaps. Toodle-pip!" and broke off all contact? You really believe that?
I'm not sure what are you referring to. In the intelligence and diplomatic community, there is usually contact across the board. Military and economic attachés interface across the board. They gather and compare perspectives with each other, and report back to their decision makers. They may even do this over tea or a round of golf as their soldiers battle each other. Does the existence of such contact incriminate them to each other's actions and decisions? It is often through these contacts that peaceful resolutions are found.
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  #132  
Old 05.02.2015, 14:23
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

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well we could all stand up and say enough, but then we'd have to pay the real price for petrol, food, holidays, iphones etc etc and that seems too high a price for most people, so I'm off to bury my head in the sand again
It seems to me standing up and saying "Enough" would lead to lower prices.

What is the relationship of price of goods and service to the violence in the Middle East? Crude oil accounts for about 50% of the price of gasoline. About 20% of it is for the cost of drilling and processing, and another 30% for taxes. How is engaging the Middle East in economic activity leading to violence? There are many other producers of oil where no such violence exists. Are their problems of violence cast on them by those of us who consume their goods? These are not local problems they create for themselves? Seriously?

So is it your point that "The West" is inflicting this violence on these people? And the local people have nothing to do with it, because they are peaceful? Ah, ok.
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  #133  
Old 05.02.2015, 14:24
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

not sure if serious
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  #134  
Old 05.02.2015, 15:46
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

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Here is a pretty well written and reasoned piece of Conspiracy Theory on the rise of ISIS.
As DB mentioned, always ask the question 'who has the most to gain' and 'who has the most to lose'?
1) The CIA doesn't need to create a group of violent, radical Muslims who hate the USA, the Middle East is doing a fine job of producing them on their own.

2) The US public is sick and tired of the Iraq war, support to continue the fight there is very low, there are no "masses begging the government to go to war".

3) On the contrary, it seems that IS brutality and sickness has actually rallied the Arab world to work together to fight them

4) The "expensive watch" that al Baghdadi is wearing ...the resolution of the pic is so poor you can't even see what brand it is, how can it be deemed "expensive"? It could be a $20 watch he got on ebay. Or maybe he took it off someone he threw from a rooftop. Altho I guess it could as well be a gift from the CIA to win his favor ()
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  #135  
Old 05.02.2015, 17:15
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

it isn't that difficult to identify many of the ways that the current situation in the middle east has been exacerbated by inconsistent and incompetent western foreign policy. anybody who buys into CIA or other conspiracy nonsense, however, is grossly overestimating the competence of western government agencies.
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  #136  
Old 05.02.2015, 17:38
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

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it isn't that difficult to identify many of the ways that the current situation in the middle east has been exacerbated by inconsistent and incompetent western foreign policy. anybody who buys into CIA or other conspiracy nonsense, however, is grossly overestimating the competence of western government agencies.
I think some Conspiracy Theorists have psychological problems. They look for patterns to justify avoiding difficult realities. Besides, it is more interesting and intriguing than the truth.

'The CIA have secret underground machines that created the 2004 Tsunami so that the US can assert their influence in the region through covert humanitarian aid.' Fool! The Tsunami happened, and some made use of whatever situation was presented to them.

Humans and especially governments are fraught with bumbling and idiotic mistakes. They are not super-sophisticated semi-divine group minds. They just look for ways to turn any situation, tragic or otherwise, to some positive advantage. Its not unlike an opportunists who says, "oh, I meant to do that".
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  #137  
Old 05.02.2015, 17:44
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

the main trouble with nut job Conspiracy Theorists is they cloud the waters, its very easy for people to just kill the obvious by saying Conspiracy Theory.

If governments are not actively involved then answer this, how are these guys getting there weapons & ammo? its not exactly an unregulated business, you can't nip down to tesco and buy rpg's and a thousand rounds of 9mm, kill a bad guy, examine his weapon, trace the serial number, job done, so and so is supplying these buggers, lets go get him.
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  #138  
Old 05.02.2015, 17:52
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

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If governments are not actively involved then answer this, how are these guys getting there weapons & ammo? its not exactly an unregulated business, you can't nip down to tesco and buy rpg's and a thousand rounds of 9mm, kill a bad guy, examine his weapon, trace the serial number, job done, so and so is supplying these buggers, lets go get him.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/small...ns-of-isis.asp
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  #139  
Old 05.02.2015, 17:56
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

I think suspicions and instincts are worthy of investigation, until you're fully satisfied with it. But to just hold it as suspicion, not bothering to prove it, then claim it as truth, and those who don't agree with are media brainwashed robots, I think leans toward paranoid schizophrenia.

We do know that weapons flooded into Iraq and Syria. From the film clips, they appear to be Russian and US made. Some are even Chinese made. Obviously they were transported there. Obviously these guys got funding to buy them. You kind of need facts to draw conclusions. To jump from there to "Death to America, and Death to Juice", eh, a bit psychotic.
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  #140  
Old 05.02.2015, 17:57
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Re: Jordan to execute ISIS prisoners condemned to death, unless ...

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If governments are not actively involved then answer this, how are these guys getting there weapons & ammo? its not exactly an unregulated business, you can't nip down to tesco and buy rpg's and a thousand rounds of 9mm, kill a bad guy, examine his weapon, trace the serial number, job done, so and so is supplying these buggers, lets go get him.
ISIS over-ran Iraq military bases stocked with the stuff the US gave them to them and took that, got stuff from Syria, etc.. I know the UN is probably "in on it" together with the CIA, but if you care to read...

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The Isis arsenal, according to the UN assessment, includes T-55 and T-72 tanks; US-manufactured Humvees; machine guns; short-range anti-aircraft artillery, including shoulder-mounted rockets captured from Iraqi and Syrian military stocks; and “extensive supplies of ammunition”. One member state, not named in the report, contends that Isis maintains a motor pool of 250 captured vehicles.
Much of the Isis weapons stocks, particularly “state of the art” weaponry stolen from the US-backed Iraqi military, was “unused” before Isis seized it, the report finds. But some of the relatively complex weapons “may be too much of a challenge” for Isis to effectively wield or maintain.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ting-two-years
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