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View Poll Results: What is the likely result of the 2015 UK General Election?
Conservatives win outright majority 1 3.13%
Labour win outright majority 1 3.13%
Hung parliament; Conservatives able to form a government 15 46.88%
Hung parliament; Labour able to form a government 4 12.50%
Chaos / no party able to form stable govt 8 25.00%
No idea / too unpredictable 3 9.38%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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  #81  
Old 06.05.2015, 00:05
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

Ballot Monkeys is on tonight and tomorrow too
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  #82  
Old 06.05.2015, 02:01
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

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Which is kind of sad in a democracy. Your vote is your right to have a say in gov formation. I can understand the general skepticism about politicians, and quite correctly so, but my policy is to choose the lesser evil. Go, exercise your right, choose the best candidate of the lot irrespective of the party line.
Na, that gets you a candidate who is maybe 0.01% less bad than the others but at the price of a higher electoral participation which the government then interprets as support and approval.

Every candidate, if you ask them, will tell you that even if you don't vote for them, they'd rather you'd vote for somebody else than not vote at all. I find that rather worrying. Don't you?

So its more important that you vote than that they get elected.

So ultimately all the main parties are about the same policies but just dressed up slightly differently.

I think we need a ballot option called "none" as they have in Nevada.
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  #83  
Old 06.05.2015, 09:24
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

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No proper reform? Well yes, there has been no 'proper' reforms- but massive reforms in fact- but not proper ones at all.

Come and have a long chat with my OH who qualified at UCH in 1969- he'll tell you about recent reforms and what he thinks about them too!

Yes, agreed, there has been a lot of political interference over the years, but no real long-term planning and reform where the basic funding model of the NHS is questioned. The notion that the NHS is 'free' stops any proper discussion.
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  #84  
Old 06.05.2015, 10:27
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

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Na, that gets you a candidate who is maybe 0.01% less bad than the others but at the price of a higher electoral participation which the government then interprets as support and approval.
Ohho!! So you want the right to criticize the government but don't want to bear the responsibility of electing the kind of government that is likely to face less criticism (even if by a factor of 0.01%)? If voters don't participate then what is the whole charade of having the election in the first place? It is not that different governments aren't being voted in or voted out in major democracies around the world.
By the way, a higher voter turn-around dosn't necessarily imply that there would be greater support or approval for the party/coalition that comes to power. In a fist-past-the-post system all one needs is 1 vote more whether the voter participation is 60% or 70%.

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I think we need a ballot option called "none" as they have in Nevada.
Well, so what you are calling for is an electoral reform and yes, why not. It can be tried. For example recently in India NOTA (None of the above) is added as an option. There has to be some meaning associated with it as well. Like say if 10% voters opt for "none" then the election for that constituency must be redone. It still means that you have to go out and vote and make the choice that you want to make.
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  #85  
Old 06.05.2015, 11:56
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

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Ohho!! So you want the right to criticize the government but don't want to bear the responsibility of electing the kind of government that is likely to face less criticism (even if by a factor of 0.01%)?

No. It's that all the main parties, and increasingly the smaller ones too, are complicit in being more or less the same with just a bit of window dressing here and pretend dispute there just to create a pretence of choice. If I vote I am creating the impression of having fallen for that trick. I am creating the pretence of accepting that I do have a choice and that I have exercised that choice. In fact I am doing what the government wants and giving it the legitimacy it hasn't got.


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If voters don't participate then what is the whole charade of having the election in the first place? It is not that different governments aren't being voted in or voted out in major democracies around the world.

Governments change yes, in terms of new faces coming in. But if you look more closely its all old wine in new bottles. Little genuinely changes. The main parties pretend to be enemies when the TV cameras are looking their way but go and have a beer or a game of golf afterwards and laugh at the stupidity of the voters. I've talked to quite a few politicians over the years and believe me, they are power thirsty animals. The good of the country doesn't come into it for them.


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By the way, a higher voter turn-around dosn't necessarily imply that there would be greater support or approval for the party/coalition that comes to power. In a fist-past-the-post system all one needs is 1 vote more whether the voter participation is 60% or 70%.

There is a difference between a mathematical win, and legitimacy. This is why voter turnout is so important to politicians. If the mathematical win alone conferred legitimacy they should be happy about low turnout as it makes the counting easier.

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Well, so what you are calling for is an electoral reform and yes, why not. It can be tried. For example recently in India NOTA (None of the above) is added as an option. There has to be some meaning associated with it as well. Like say if 10% voters opt for "none" then the election for that constituency must be redone. It still means that you have to go out and vote and make the choice that you want to make.

I'm aware of that.


But there are people who don't want a new election. They want the seat of their representative to remain vacant for the duration. There could be an automatic setup that this vacant seat votes NO on all issues. Politicians have a tendency of looking for problems they can fix and by extension creating problems so they can fix them. An empty seat doesn't do that. Of course when a real crisis comes we can elect a real person for the duration.


Imagine one day there could be a majority of empty seats in parliament. The others could debate but they couldn't pass any laws without calling a new election first, which they would only do if the need was sufficiently pressing. Add in a Swiss style referendum thing so new laws can be created organically.


But how can we get there? Only continuously decreasing voter turnouts can move governments to seriously consider such reforms. Who would voluntarily vote to have their job replaced by an empty seat? Politicians are just too comfy. They never would.
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  #86  
Old 06.05.2015, 12:58
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

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But how can we get there? Only continuously decreasing voter turnouts can move governments to seriously consider such reforms. Who would voluntarily vote to have their job replaced by an empty seat? Politicians are just too comfy. They never would.
Or just the reverse which is more logical. By increasing vote participation you increase the chance of your kind of representative to get elected - that new face who you trust might make the difference. In fact it could be you!! Thats the whole purpose of voting in the first place.
The fallacy of your argument is that you say the government can't be trusted to truly represent your concern, and so a situation should be created (majority of empty seats) that will somehow make the government more concerned!! You trust the government, that you don't trust, to make a change!!! Why, I think it will make the government more of a despot if it has fewer members to oppose in the parliament (those empty seats can't speak, but were potentially going to provide a big fraction of opposing voices).
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  #87  
Old 06.05.2015, 13:05
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

Of course electoral reform is required. Just look at what will happen: UKIP will get 13% of the the vote, yet only 2-3 seats
  • The Lib Dems will get 9% of the vote and 26 MPs
  • Scotland will be virtually entirely SNP with more than 50% of the electorate not having voted for them
  • The next leader of the country will be Prime Minister with 80% of people not having voted for them
This isn't democracy, it's a sham. Your vote is meaningless.
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  #88  
Old 06.05.2015, 13:06
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

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Comedy tonight on UK TV, Channel 4, at 11 pm Swiss time

http://www.radiotimes.com/episode/dk...-1---episode-3
Comedy again tonight, the last one before election day, on UK TV, Channel 4, at 11 pm Swiss time

http://www.radiotimes.com/episode/dk...-1---episode-5
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  #89  
Old 06.05.2015, 13:12
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

The Liberals and Democrats have always pushed for proportional representation. I wonder if the Lib-Dem party tried again in this present government?

Germany has a form of proportional representation and although they have numerous parties, the two big ones are always controlling almost everything. You rarely read about any other party, other than making jibes at the Green party. Apart from voter satisfaction, would any system change bring any big difference?
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  #90  
Old 06.05.2015, 13:22
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

Such a mess British politics at the moment, people have just lost faith in general. Just wondering who is going to jump into bed with who!

A outcome which everyone can predict for sure apart from those in government.
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  #91  
Old 06.05.2015, 13:30
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

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Or just the reverse which is more logical. By increasing vote participation you increase the chance of your kind of representative to get elected - that new face who you trust might make the difference. In fact it could be you!! Thats the whole purpose of voting in the first place.
The fallacy of your argument is that you say the government can't be trusted to truly represent your concern, and so a situation should be created (majority of empty seats) that will somehow make the government more concerned!! You trust the government, that you don't trust, to make a change!!! Why, I think it will make the government more of a despot if it has fewer members to oppose in the parliament (those empty seats can't speak, but were potentially going to provide a big fraction of opposing voices).

The empty speaks can't speak, but they automatically vote NO. And this can be more important in preventing the continuous re-arranging of the deckchairs as the Titanic sinks, which is the problem of our political system. And if you ask the committee for the re-arrangement of deck chairs to produce reforms they will do so by producing new ways of re-arranging the deck-chairs. It is in their nature. You are saying the solution is to elect people who will re-arrange the deck chairs in a more reasonable and intelligent manner. My response is to stuff the deck chairs and do something about the lifeboats instead.


And yes, I do place more trust in an empty seat than a career politician. An empty seat with an automatic no-vote cannot be corrupted by lobbyists for a start.


The problem is that power corrupts. Maybe some people get elected with genuine good intentions but once inside the machine, the machine takes control of them and they become the machine.
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  #92  
Old 06.05.2015, 13:41
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

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The Liberals and Democrats have always pushed for proportional representation. I wonder if the Lib-Dem party tried again in this present government?

Germany has a form of proportional representation and although they have numerous parties, the two big ones are always controlling almost everything. You rarely read about any other party, other than making jibes at the Green party. Apart from voter satisfaction, would any system change bring any big difference?
Not really. Germany has a good number of smaller parties and quite lively ones too, ranging from die Die Linken over FDP to AfD and these get a lot of airtime in political debates and are taken seriously (well, AfD maybe not). Both the Greens and FDP have formed parts of coalitions in the past.
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  #93  
Old 06.05.2015, 14:14
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

What annoys me about British politics is it's always an us vs them situation in the house of commons. Whatever the government proposes is ridiculed by the opposition regardless of whether it's a good idea or not.

I feel as if they just want to get one up on each other instead of doing what's best for the country.
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  #94  
Old 06.05.2015, 14:18
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

Bit like the coalition, all of a sudden they disagree with each other, funny that.
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  #95  
Old 06.05.2015, 14:23
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

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The empty speaks can't speak, but they automatically vote NO.

The problem is that power corrupts.
Empty seats automatically voting 'No' can't do anything affirmative. In addition it paves the way for the government to become a despot (The very premise that they are corrupt genetically makes this situation far more logical than for them to institute something remedial).
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  #96  
Old 06.05.2015, 15:58
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

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Empty seats automatically voting 'No' can't do anything affirmative. In addition it paves the way for the government to become a despot (The very premise that they are corrupt genetically makes this situation far more logical than for them to institute something remedial).


"No" votes prevent things from happening. They don't make things happen. Thus rather than allow despotism, they prevent it. Nothing is more problematic for a despot than not being able to pass laws. You can threaten people, you can buy and corrupt them and you can strike secret deals with them. But an empty seat is party to none of these things. It's the only option that gives the voter precisely and predictably what he asked for.
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  #97  
Old 06.05.2015, 17:03
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

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Nothing is more problematic for a despot than not being able to pass laws.
A government won't need a legislative ability to pass law to become despot. The fact that there is no opposition, even inadvertantly, means the government moves into the orbit of despotism. Absence of opposition, empty seats by whatever means, ensures that such an environment might arrive (even without a great deal of effort from the government).
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  #98  
Old 06.05.2015, 17:27
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

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A government won't need a legislative ability to pass law to become despot. The fact that there is no opposition, even inadvertantly, means the government moves into the orbit of despotism. Absence of opposition, empty seats by whatever means, ensures that such an environment might arrive (even without a great deal of effort from the government).
No.


We already have that lack of opposition. The major parties and sadly the smaller ones too are in consensus over far too many issues. They occasionally have window-dressing disputes to maintain the pretense of plurality, but as I said, it's not for real.


If you like things that way, then by all means go and vote. It probably doesn't matter who you vote for and seeing they are all so similar. But for people not represented by these parties, why should they vote for one they disagree with and thus uphold the pretense of being represented. Let's just admit it, the system as it is is fk * ed up.
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  #99  
Old 06.05.2015, 18:09
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

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We already have that lack of opposition. The major parties and sadly the smaller ones too are in consensus over far too many issues. They occasionally have window-dressing disputes to maintain the pretense of plurality, but as I said, it's not for real.


That's pretty much how Switzerland works; the Bundesrat covers the entire political spectrum. The country functions pretty well as far as I can tell.


Maybe the major parties are in consensus over many issues because that is the correct way to treat them? You propose some mainstream parties propose alternatives just to be "different", whether they're workable or not?
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Old 06.05.2015, 18:54
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Re: UK General Election 2015: May 7 (poll)

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No.
Why?

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But for people not represented by these parties, why should they vote for one they disagree with and thus uphold the pretense of being represented.
If they think that the current lot doesn't represent them, they should find somebody from among themselves to stand up and represent them. Thats how new parties come into being. Be the change that you want to see.
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